Higher phosphatidylcholine protects against dementia

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Re: Higher phosphatidylcholine protects against dementia

Postby slacker » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:58 am

I couldn't find free access to the full article from 2003. Here is the conclusion:

REVIEWER'S CONCLUSIONS:

Evidence from randomized trials does not support the use of lecithin in the treatment of patients with dementia. A moderate effect cannot be ruled out, but results from the small trials to date do not indicate priority for a large randomized trial.


The Cochran meta analysis looked at trials using lecithin as monotherapy in patients with dementia. It does not tell us if lecithin is or is not of value in combination with other interventions or in people trying to prevent dementia.
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Re: Higher phosphatidylcholine protects against dementia

Postby slacker » Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:59 am

MarcR wrote: I feel great when I eat lots of eggs, and common sense tells me that any naturally occurring food containing all the nutrients required to form a baby chicken must be good food.


Marc, are you willing to share how you feel great on eggs? More energy, strength, better mood...? Inquiring minds want to know more about your N=1 :D
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Re: Higher phosphatidylcholine protects against dementia

Postby MarcR » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:17 am

slacker wrote:Marc, are you willing to share how you feel great on eggs? More energy, strength, better mood...? Inquiring minds want to know more about your N=1 :D
It's the satisfied feeling that comes with a good meal that settles well, lasts a long time, doesn't make me sleepy, and digests well. For me a contrasting meal would be chili. I enjoy eating a spicy, savory bowl of meaty homemade chili, but the meal does not settle or digest as comfortably. I think I have an issue with beans - kidney, black, pinto, etc. - as I notice the same feeling when I add them to a salad.

I should say that while I do enjoy hard boiled eggs on car trips, usually eggs are over medium in lots of butter or frittata-style with sauteed onions and garlic along with cheese and uncured beef sausage. I'm sure that the companion ingredients play a big role.

My overall sense of wellbeing ("energy, strength, better mood") doesn't vary much, but maybe that's because I eat so many eggs! :-)

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Re: Higher phosphatidylcholine protects against dementia

Postby floramaria » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:18 pm

8 eggs a day recommended for me to get adequate choline. Yikes!
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Re: Higher phosphatidylcholine protects against dementia

Postby Jmac » Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:30 am

So glad I found apoe4.info! So many great resources and wonderful, supportive people. I've been plant-based for years, so did a huge "yikes" when I rec'd my 23&me, started reading about what I SHOULD (and shouldn't) be eating. The Chris Masterjohn calculator showed I needed 8 egg yolks. Not something I want to add so going the PC route and making sure I increase nuts, spinach, flax which were already part of my diet. On the positive side, I was already gluten and sugar-free, so guess that compensates a bit for some of the things I am learning I've been doing "wrong" for my mixed up genes :-).

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Re: Higher phosphatidylcholine protects against dementia

Postby Plumster » Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:39 am

So glad I found apoe4.info! So many great resources and wonderful, supportive people. I've been plant-based for years, so did a huge "yikes" when I rec'd my 23&me, started reading about what I SHOULD (and shouldn't) be eating. The Chris Masterjohn calculator showed I needed 8 egg yolks. Not something I want to add so going the PC route and making sure I increase nuts, spinach, flax which were already part of my diet. On the positive side, I was already gluten and sugar-free, so guess that compensates a bit for some of the things I am learning I've been doing "wrong" for my mixed up genes :-).


I am also plant-based and it's worth remembering that choline is in a lot of other things besides eggs (is the egg industry behind this?? Chris Masterjohn does take money from industries, like the meat industry). I understand that choline is very high in eggs, but it's also in tofu, quinoa, broccoli, etc. I recommend looking at a choline food lists online. I found a great list and I'll post it here if I can find it again. I do supplement with PC to make sure I'm getting enough.

Edit: Here's the list: https://vegfaqs.com/vegan-food-sources-choline/
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Re: Higher phosphatidylcholine protects against dementia

Postby MarcR » Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:50 am

Plumster wrote:(is the egg industry behind this?? Chris Masterjohn does take money from industries, like the meat industry)
Masterjohn is a published nutrition scientist who strives mightily to explain how he arrives at his recommendations. I see no reason to impugn his motives especially since he is so transparent about his sources and reasoning.

I think Masterjohn uses eggs as a communication device to make this nutritional requirement more clear. In his own words:
As with biotin, the best sources of choline are liver and egg yolks. Since eggs are so much more popular than liver, let's talk about the choline requirement in terms of "egg yolk equivalents."
I find the rhetorical device to be helpful. According to Masterjohn's research into choline's interactions with the methylation cycle, Jmac's genetic makeup requires 8 egg yolk equivalents daily. That's 1,100 mg of choline. If we convert the top source on the list Plumster linked, we can see that 12 cups (7,016 kcal) of buckwheat groats also provides 1,100 mg of choline. Too many calories? Instead, we could consume 127 Swiss chard leafs at only 1,159 kcal. 17 cups (973 kcal) of Brussels sprouts or 23 cups (626 kcal) of cauliflower would also do the trick.

I think Masterjohn's point is that most people grossly underestimate what is required to get enough choline to stave off fatty liver, insulin resistance, hyperhomocysteinemia, and the resulting cascade of chronic disease. Simply eyeballing a list of foods containing choline and trying to eat more of them is unlikely to work - we actually need to do some calculations to give us a feel for the magnitude of this requirement.

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Re: Higher phosphatidylcholine protects against dementia

Postby Plumster » Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:01 pm

Hi MarcR,

I respect Masterjohn and listen to him myself sometimes. But I do wonder why he is so often so very much in favor of meat and eggs, especially considering where his funds come from. That is just a healthy amount of skepticism when evaluating someone's research.

Simply eyeballing a list of foods containing choline and trying to eat more of them is unlikely to work - we actually need to do some calculations to give us a feel for the magnitude of this requirement.


As mentioned in my post above, I am not recommending we get all your choline from beans and broccoli alone. I specifically mention supplementing in addition to food sources.
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Re: Higher phosphatidylcholine protects against dementia

Postby Tincup » Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:36 pm

Plumster wrote:I am also plant-based and it's worth remembering that choline is in a lot of other things besides eggs (is the egg industry behind this??


Note that Masterjohn, on his calculator page, provides this database of choline in all sorts of foods.

In my opinion, questioning Masterjohn's motives is inappropriate and uncalled for.
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Re: Higher phosphatidylcholine protects against dementia

Postby Plumster » Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:58 pm

Sorry, but it's never inappropriate to question an authority figure or expert.
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