Why is SAT fat controversial ?

[Hepoberman]

The public debate on saturated fat is quite different from that of academia. Why?

There are no board certified lipidologists who believe a diet high in Saturated fat is good for us. [I cannot find one, at least) While at the same time, it easy to find 'for-profit' doctors, nutritionists, journalists, etc who vehemently deny the risks associated with a diet high in saturated fat. How and why does this discordance exist ?

While the explanation may seem a bit complicated, we all should be able to articulate the specifics of how and why the truth is distorted. We ~4's have the most to lose in this public debate because we are most sensitive to the dangers hyperlipidemia.

Dr. Greger does a fantastic job of explaining how and why these myths continue to propagate. I would love to hash out every detail in this video until everyone understands and agrees on the facts. (Its possible we may still not agree on the conclusions)



While our genetics may differ our biology is all the same. -More Sat fat brings more disease.

Observational studies are useless but the industries who profit from selling stearic acid (SFA from animals) continue to push bad science to the public.

[pguyer807]

It is a fact that controlling glucose is very important in all aspects of health and disease. I have yet to find in mainstream information the connection
between saturated fat and blood sugar. We talk about carbs? When I was able to make this connection through some
obscure way (don't even remember where I found the info) it changed everything. When I increase my SFA my blood sugar
increases. Maybe this is individual based on other genetics. Concerned about a zero fat diet I have tweaked with olive oil,
healthy fats to see where my tipping point is.
It is very scary to have a known risk factor for Alzheimer's. We are all trying to figure out the best strategies for prevention with very scant information that seems consistent . The one fact we know is exercise is extemely important.

[Hepoberman]

It is a fact that controlling glucose is very important in all aspects of health and disease. I have yet to find in mainstream information the connection
between saturated fat and blood sugar. We talk about carbs? When I was able to make this connection through some
obscure way (don't even remember where I found the info) it changed everything. When I increase my SFA my blood sugar
increases. Maybe this is individual based on other genetics. Concerned about a zero fat diet I have tweaked with olive oil,
healthy fats to see where my tipping point is.
It is very scary to have a known risk factor for Alzheimer's. We are all trying to figure out the best strategies for prevention with very scant information that seems consistent . The one fact we know is exercise is extemely important.

From Joslins blog, she explains this part well...
"A high fat meal can increase the amount of free fatty acids (FFAs) in the blood. Both repeatedly elevated levels of FFAs as found in chronic intake of high fat (especially high saturated fat) meals and obesity are associated with both skeletal muscle and liver insulin resistance. There is also evidence that FFAs may have a direct role in reducing the amount of insulin secreted by the beta cells in the pancreas, although an exact mechanism for this role is unknown."

Dietary fat, insulin sensitivity and the metabolic syndrome. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15297079
"In conclusion, there is evidence available in humans indicating that dietary fat quality influences insulin sensitivity and associated metabolic abnormalities. Therefore, prevention of the metabolic syndrome has to be targeted: (1) to correct overweight by reducing the energy density of the habitual diet (i.e., fat intake) and (2) to improve insulin sensitivity and associated metabolic abnormalities through a reduction of dietary saturated fat, partially replaced, when appropriate, by monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats."

If we could provide ourselves with all the nutrients and energy we need while at the same time keeping glucose and tg's under 100mg/dl, we'd have nothing to worry about. Has anyone ever accomplished that?

Here's a video with Dr. Greger explaining more details.

[Julie G]

Hep and pguyer807, I'm so glad that you found what triggers elevated BG for you. It's fascinating to see the individual variations among our members. It's also interesting to juxtapose the information from Dr. Greger with that from Dr. Masterjohn on saturated fat in this link.

[Spittinchips]

Count me in as one who thinks that SFAs are not controversial.

But then I went and had a look at 'Dr Gerber MD' and he had some very nasty things to say about Chocolate, Cupcake, Terriyaki, Stew and Rendang, who I care about deeply and provide me with brekkie most mornings.

Needless to say, they were very offended on hearing the news that their gifts are poison.

[MAC]

I went back and read through some of the forum threads, noting the various "camps" re dietary intake of fat types, carbs, lipids profiles, and correlation to CVD/AD/TCM. No universal consensus, even considering high risk E4 status.

I am in way over my head for sure, I don't know the "right" answer, but as an E4 (and I think for general pop as well) I am definitely in the lower SFA intake camp (red meats, seed oils, dairy, etc)

Aside from the "science", I just look at how a more westernized diet in the last 100 years is killing us re CVD and alarmingly higher incidence of AD. What is in this diet...more (higher %) SFA and refined carbs?! Why, especially as an E4, bet against this overwhelming observation?

And from purely a practical plumbing point of view (CVD is artheroscoloris of the periphery, and AD is artherosclerosis of the brain).

Key SFA's have MELTING POINTS ABOVE BODY TEMPERATURE (38C) !

http://chemistry.elmhurst.edu/vchembook ... acids.html

SFA Melting Point
Lauric +44C
Palmitic +63C
Stearic +70C

That means, they are SOLID when ingested and payloaded via apo's.

So these "solids" floating around the plasma and vessels...no wonder they gum up our plumbing, just basic physics?

Whereas common USFA are well below body temperature, thus liquid phase (and double bonded, easier to cleave)

USFA Melting Point

Oleic +16C
Linoleic -5C

Here's a recent Harvard Med school review: "Saturated fat and heart disease: The latest evidence" (January 2016)

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 00001/epdf

They touch on the "controversy" over SFA

Saturated fats as compared with different sources of carbohydrates.

Most observational studies to date, and many trials, including those used in the aforementioned meta-analyses, have by default compared the effects of saturated fats on CHD to those of total carbohydrates. As noted above, given that for the last 30–40 years, carbohydrate intake in the US and Europe has been dominated by refined and/or sugar-based carbohydrates (e.g., white bread, cola), the comparison between these carbohydrates and saturated fat simply be-comes a question of which is the lesser evil. To that question, the answer almost universally observed is that there is no association between saturated fat and heart disease, when compared to total carbohydrates. This misleading comparison lies at the heart of the confusion about saturated fat today.

Conclusions

The connections between high saturated fat intake and CHD risk are real, supported by decades of mechanistic and epidemiological research. Current dietary guidelines in the US and elsewhere, re-commending limiting intake to less than 10% of energy intake, should continue to be adhered to for optimal cardiovascular health. When making recommendations to lower saturated fat intake, individuals, healthcare professionals, and industry should emphasize replacing saturated fats typical in red and processed meats, and certain tropical oils and dairy forms, with healthier polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fat-rich foods, such as nuts, olive oil, and fatty fish, as well as healthy sources of carbohydrates, such as fiber rich whole-grain foods, rather than refined-grain and sugar-laden foods

[cdamaden]

That recommendation included reducing tropical oils. No mention of olive or avocado oil.

For this goal of 10% or less of saturated fat, I looked at my cron-o-meter results over the last 3 months. My numbers were:
2046 kCal total
130 g fat total
28 g sat fat
the breakdown of saturated fat was:
Olive oil: 5.1g
red meat: 5.3g
Avocado oil: 1.6g
Avocado: 0.9g
Sardines/Salmon: 2.2g
(which doesn't add up to 28 g)
I found that 1 g of fat converts to 9 kCals, so I'm running at 12%. Is that the correct conversion?
(I've kept red meat in my diet mostly for the benefits of liver and to keep variety.)

From an historical perspective, I wonder what the saturated fat profile of our ancestors was. I would imagine those who weren't near the ocean or other bodies of water included game meat in their diets.
http://sciencenordic.com/maasai-keep-he ... h-fat-diet
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... round.html
https://www.wired.com/2012/09/milk-meat ... he-maasai/
https://www.dovepress.com/comparison-wi ... e-DMSO-MVP

I'm not advocating a high saturated fat diet, I'm just wondering if there is a reasonable amount to include in our diets and how to consider plant based saturated fats.

[MAC]

cdamaden, are you referring to the Harvard article?

They did mention switching from SFA to M/USFA like olive oil, with reduced SFA.

I think your grams of fat to kcal is correct, but yes, breakdown not adding up to 28g?

The reference articles very interesting...do you buy the arguments that these specific group studies had genetically ADAPTED to their diet? Like the Maasai for example...milk/blood/meat!

But how to reconcile the historical specific group studies like the Massai to say the general US population at risk today for CVD/AD?

We all came from various historical/genetic lineage (the majority still perhaps Western European), but is the average US baby boomer today equally being effected by CVD/AD controlling for "western diet" exposure/intake re SFA/refined carbs/sugars?

I think in general plant based fats (including olive oil and avocado oil) are quite simply much much less SFA content (that's how i look at it). Better to eat a pound of olive oil than a pound of kobe beef?

I don't know what reasonable is, but since I'm adopting a LCHF, where the LC comes from plants (veggies, nuts, EVOO), I don't see how I can avoid completely...so let's the chips fall.

[Stavia]

Aside from the "science", I just look at how a more westernized diet in the last 100 years is killing us re CVD and alarmingly higher incidence of AD. What is in this diet...more (higher %) SFA and refined carbs?! Why, especially as an E4, bet against this overwhelming observation?

Nice discussion Mac.

Now that's the question. I see camps with their pre-formatted answer trying to fit their answer to the question.
What about going the other way around and asking the question without looking thru a narrow saturated fat lens?

I've got lots of possibilities off the top of my head - increased industrial seed oils, increased refined carbs, lower micronutrient intake, lower D3 and other fat soluble vitamins, less exercise, poorer sleep due to being up at night with TV and other screens, higher incidence of obesity with consequent inflammation....

I also don't personally think that AD is simply atherosclerosis of the brain. That is definitely true in vascular dementia though.

[MAC]

Sorry, I meant LCHF, where LC comes from veggies (low SFA) and HF comes from (nuts, avocado, EVOO) (low SFA).