Bulletproof "KetoPrime" Oxaloacetate

Insights and discussion from the cutting edge with reference to journal articles and other research papers.
apod
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Bulletproof "KetoPrime" Oxaloacetate

Postby apod » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:11 am

I've been keeping an eye out for new Oxaloacetate products ever since hearing about it from the early research in Japan via "benaGene." This one crossed my inbox this afternoon: http://www.bulletproof.com/ketoprime



Chris Masterjohn recently had a podcast that described a state of ketosis as a sort of lack of oxaloacetate.

http://smartdrugsmarts.com/oxaloacetate/

http://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/07/2 ... d-insulin/

https://www.nia.nih.gov/alzheimers/clin ... sease-toad

I've heard Ben Greenfield talk about it as a performance enhancer (apparently it up-regulates the conversion of lactic acid into glucose?) It seems a little snake-oily, but it's an interesting product as just a natural TCA cycle intermediate. :geek:

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Re: Bulletproof "KetoPrime" Oxaloacetate

Postby MAC » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:29 pm

apod, are you interested in finding an exogeneous ketone for achieving the highest level/duration ketone state other than extreme low carb protocol (pure ketosis) and/or a way to achieve same whilst taking in some desired level of carbohydrate?

It's interesting how Masterjohn in his podcast, in reference to the MCT on pasta experiment, showed how one could still consume carbs "for their micronutrients" (vs. having to go to pure ketosis carb restriction), and still get a ketone body rise by taking MCT simultaneously. That's probably not what he meant, as we know we can get all the micronutrients we need without eating carbs (aside from the IR benefits)?

Re the Oxaloacetate trial study you referenced, I did find out that the study is NOT excluding E4's, which is a different wrinkle, as I've seen other exogenous ketone trial studies specifically exclude E4.

The oxaloacetate science in human trial RCT outcome I don't think has been shown..they seem to riding the fine line of "health benefit" claims re FDA issue? Slick marketing for sure.
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Re: Bulletproof "KetoPrime" Oxaloacetate

Postby Julie G » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:30 pm

Has anybody tried oxaloacetate supplementation? We have a 4/4, active on our Facebook page, who's claimed to have gotten amazing results from it (primarily relief from fatigue.) I want to learn more.

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Re: Bulletproof "KetoPrime" Oxaloacetate

Postby apod » Thu Dec 22, 2016 11:55 pm

MAC wrote:apod, are you interested in finding an exogeneous ketone for achieving the highest level/duration ketone state other than extreme low carb protocol (pure ketosis) and/or a way to achieve same whilst taking in some desired level of carbohydrate?

It's interesting how Masterjohn in his podcast, in reference to the MCT on pasta experiment, showed how one could still consume carbs "for their micronutrients" (vs. having to go to pure ketosis carb restriction), and still get a ketone body rise by taking MCT simultaneously. That's probably not what he meant, as we know we can get all the micronutrients we need without eating carbs (aside from the IR benefits)?

Re the Oxaloacetate trial study you referenced, I did find out that the study is NOT excluding E4's, which is a different wrinkle, as I've seen other exogenous ketone trial studies specifically exclude E4.

The oxaloacetate science in human trial RCT outcome I don't think has been shown..they seem to riding the fine line of "health benefit" claims re FDA issue? Slick marketing for sure.

I've mixed MCT and carbs a few times. It seems like this improves glucose disposal (from higher insulin secretion, which is maybe not ideal?), but I don't really get as much of a "bonus" from it as simply not eating the carbs and letting ketones come up on their own or throwing the MCT just over fat (eg. bulletproof coffee.) It feels about like just eating the carbs and the ketones don't stay up for very long. The last time I had some beans with caprylic acid on top, it was around 70g+ net carbs with almost no glucose elevation or noticable peak and ketones measured ~1.3mmol soon after. I was wearing a CGM at the time and I maxed out at like... 110 mg/dL, which is nothing for a peak PP glucose value. I'm not sure if a higher level of ketosis is necessarily desirable long-term (particularly not when you're getting there via supplementation.) Dave Asprey often mentions around 0.5mmol of BHB as a sweet spot for suppressing appetite, "resetting ghrelin / CCK", and improving body composition, which is a pretty tame goal. (Although, even up around 2.4mmol, I'm still pretty hungry come meal time.)

I have heard Paul Jaminet talk about "Glucose deficiency" issues (often citing the "Optimal Dieters"), recommending an MCT-supplemented diet as a way to achieve higher ketones without running persistently low glucose, which could have some tissue repair / immune issues. He's also mentioned glutathione depletion issues in VLC dieters. So, I do somewhat look at glucose / carbs as a sort of conditionally essential nutrient.

A while back, I got a little too comfortable with C8 and added too much, just eyeballing it into my smoothie (not recommended.) :D Blood sugar soon dropped into the low 60's. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2614&p=30525

It seems like exogenous ketones are at least as effective for glucose disposal as alpha lipoic acid or cinnamon extract, if not more so. I'm still unsure of how these affect lipids or glycation, so I tend to use it sparingly. Caprylic acid tastes kind of like butter and is a pretty nice alternative to something like coconut oil or olive oil over some basmati rice... but it is kind of an ultra-processed saturated fat.

Ketone salts are intriguing, but also kind of under-researched. I tend to be a little weary of even Calcium supplementation. I feel like occasionally eating more vegetables in place of starches / fruits and putting a little more time between my meals is probably a more sustainable / healthy way to dabble with higher levels of ketones.

I'm looking at oxaloacetate as something like citric acid or malic acid (that probably doesn't do much of anything since it's already running in every cell... and by the same token, should be relatively safe to supplement?) But, articles like this are interesting:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20645869 (methylglyoxal is one of my concerns for higher levels of ketones)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2988682/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25027327

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19793063

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26811028

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... estriction

etc.

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Re: Bulletproof "KetoPrime" Oxaloacetate

Postby apod » Fri Dec 30, 2016 6:23 pm

A newly posted presentation from Alan Cash (KetoPrime inventor):

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Re: Bulletproof "KetoPrime" Oxaloacetate

Postby Surfrank57 » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:26 am

APOD, as a nutritionist I will tell you your level of understanding is very impressive. Biochem is not an easy subject and your grasp is refreshing. Keep doing the n=1 stuff and researching because it's guys like you who make the new discoveries.

Frank

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Re: Bulletproof "KetoPrime" Oxaloacetate

Postby apod » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:15 pm

Surfrank57 wrote:APOD, as a nutritionist I will tell you your level of understanding is very impressive. Biochem is not an easy subject and your grasp is refreshing. Keep doing the n=1 stuff and researching because it's guys like you who make the new discoveries.

Frank

I'm into it! These research articles are often a little out of my grasp, but it keeps the wheels spinning. :geek:

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Re: Bulletproof "KetoPrime" Oxaloacetate

Postby Sandy57 » Mon Jan 02, 2017 4:12 am

Great job APOD.


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