Gilgamesh wrote:Wow, so you're fasting much more often than one would following Longo's protocol. Of course, his recommendations are influenced to a great degree but what he thinks would be doable by most people.
G
I agree, I look at what he did to get the results in the rodents (before FMD). Also, from what I heard Dom D'Agostino (I think it was him) said rodents cannot go nearly as long as humans without food. Humans may need to go significantly longer than rodents for the same "signal". So I think Longo is treating people very gingerly so they will do it, perhaps at the expense of stronger results. Most people are not keto adapted, so it will be unpleasant for them. My system fuel switches so readily that it is not a big deal.
Gundry has us on a diet that is protein restricted, especially animal. He is trying to mimic the benefits of CR. This is all well and good, but perhaps not ideal for the purposes of refeeding, where you do want to stimulate the various nutrient sensing pathways of IGF-1 and TOR.
I'm reading & listening to Longo and trying to adapt the optimal approach for benefit. Am I correct? Who knows???
SusanJ wrote:"My goal is to return my weight to approximately what it was pre-fast."
George, Stavia, how much weight do you lose during a fast? (% of total?)
Here is a graph of my weight since I started doing the fast cycles. May 1st was the start of my first fasting day of the first cycle. The light red line is the data, the dark red line is the scale software's moving average. They don't state the formula, but it is weighted towards the most recent data. It can be a bit squirrelly.
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I weigh 116 pounds, and a 4% loss would put me at 111, which at 5'6" would be quite a low BMI. It's hard enough for me to put on weight without a lot of carbs, so I'm uncertain at the moment that a 5-day fast is something I should do.
Anyone know how Longo approaches those of us already on the low end of weight?
Susan with a (starting) low BMI you might struggle with a 5 day fast. I have a lower body-fat level, than my BMI level, because of lifelong weight lifting and I really struggle with more than 36 hours of fasting. With my lifestyle, work, and activity level, I feel like death after 36 hours. Low body-fat and true low BMI is a contradiction for long fasts. It can be done, has to be very supervised, electrolytes have to be on point, and activity levels adjusted for. The biggest issue with low bodyfat athletes is slower recovery rates and very high cravings for carbs, after the fast.
Just a quick side note: Gundry and Longo point out the Italians in their research (and observations) on longevity; I am Italian and a lot of my family is from Italy. Some are still in Bari and Milan. My father was the first child born in the US from my grandparents and I personally do not know of one Italian relative or their friends that fast. I am the black sheep for IF. As for that matter, they never even skip breakfast.
That ate very Mediterranean, worked hard, lived long, but mostly did not worry about food, instead enjoyed the hell out of it. They ate bread, they ate pasta made of durum wheat, they did not limit fruits, ate nuts, and they drank a decent amount of wine. The relatives that died the earliest were the ones that adapted more of a SAD diet. I do not want to discourage ANYBODY from doing what they think is best for their health, in fact quite the opposite. However, after years of research and being in or around medicine since I was a teenager, (did pre- college human biology coursework); I have come to the strong conclusion that longevity and a good quality of life is more about lifestyle choices, than what these cultures / countries eat.
The healthiest people in the world are the ones that live the simpler, stress free life's. Usually hard workers, sense of community, socialize a lot, family orientated, and stay busy. You can eat perfect all day long, but have a super stressed life and die pre- maturely. It's definitely about balance.
Diet is important, I would never argue that it is not, but it is only one of the many factors that contribute to a long life for people from countries that live the longest. Genetics is a massive player in this equation as well, probably the biggest. Just my opinion based on years of observations.
I suspect I would also have a longer recovery time, as you pointed out with athletes - I'm fit, but not in the athlete range anymore. It's generally hard for me to put on weight at any time without the high carb binge.
Interesting you mention breakfast. I still eat breakfast, just later in the morning, and it seems to work for me as far as weight maintenance and energy to spread my calories over 3 meals. And like you, just eating in a shorter window than I used to eat.
Your point on stress is a critical one and might end up being as important (if not more) as insulin resistance...
SusanJ wrote:Thanks, you both seem to be in the same ballpark.
I weigh 116 pounds, and a 4% loss would put me at 111, which at 5'6" would be quite a low BMI. It's hard enough for me to put on weight without a lot of carbs, so I'm uncertain at the moment that a 5-day fast is something I should do.
Anyone know how Longo approaches those of us already on the low end of weight?
First, I agree with Frank that other lifestyle factors are very important (I meditate every morning).
When one fasts, the first thing that happens is muscle/liver glycogen gets used. There are 3 or 4 grams of water with each gram of glycogen, so when the glycogen gets used, this water is urinated out. This is the initial water weight of weight loss. This comes off very fast and also, in my experience comes back on very quickly upon refeeding. I think a lot of my weight variation is from this water associated with glycogen.
The most aggressive program I've heard from Longo is a 5 day fasting mimicking diet (FMD) per month for humans. For MS, Longo said he was going to the FDA suggesting 7 days FMD every two months.
The journalist, Shelley, that was with us at AHS16 recently did a 5 day bone broth fast along with another of her female friends (they are both friends of mine). Shelley is also low BMI,. If you'd like, I can put you in email contact with her about her experience.
For the record, I'm not suggesting anybody follow my lead, I'm just reporting my experience. I realize I'm somewhat "Type A" (hahaha) and am prone to pushing the envelope.
Thanks, George. I'm going to put a longer fast on hold for now. Going through a spell with seasonal allergies, and mast cell activation can be worse under stress, including fasting.
George you are not TYPE A, you are what we call in the fitness world a Beast....by the way as you know, that is a major compliment. Also please understand I was not taking a shot at you or Theresa B. I was just commenting that with low BMI or low bodyfat, it is definitely more of a challenge to do longer fasts and you need to be very cautious.
In fact to also go on record because of you guys I have incorporated some of Gundry's practices, including trying VR and Primal Plants. However , I will stand by my previous comments that I do see inconsistencies similar to Russ, in some of Gundry's methodology. Actually I stated on the boards in the past , that I see this in all the docs and researchers selling supplements, products, or information. So I definitely am not singling out Gundry for this practice.
This is just a slippery slope because as time goes by and they update their protocols; it can be at odds with what they said or did in the past. Now the counter argument can be, that at the time it was the best information they had or what their research / observations showed. However, the approach at that point is to point out any discrepancies : On such and such date, I recommended product A for this reason, and now on this date after further research I can now suggest product B or information B because this is what my lastest research / observations have shown. Then really smart people like Russ would not catch you in a gotcha moment. The lack of transparency or acknowledgement of the change seems suspicious otherwise.
As a sports Med Chiro and nutritionist I have done that myself; as I acquire more knowledge or see that we have better technology to change methods of treatment, or protocols. Get it all the time, "Hey Frank you said this, and now you are saying this, why". Better have some good answers or your credibility goes out the window. The big difference of course is I am not selling books or supplements, so my explanations of change are usually enough.
Therefore, I decided to post the information about diet and longevity, because this is one of those cases that I see some discrepancy. If you follow Gundry on Instagram, he has been posting foods from Italy, in the area that people live to 100 or older. I agree with what he is saying about what they eat, but that is only one of many factors. It is not just diet alone for sure. Also he might be generalizing (a nice word for cherry picking) some because the people I know from Italy and my relatives ate many things not on the matrix diet. Including gluten, wheat products, pasta, bread, beans, more fruit then we eat in the US, and higher protein than both Longo or Gundry recommend. They get protein from different sources; that may be healthier than the choices we make in the US, but their macro profile is higher in protein than is being suggested. IMHO and again just MY opinion, a lot of the people on this forum from what I can decipher from their posted diets, do not eat enough protein. You have to keep your lean muscle mass, and without sufficient protein intake that will not happen. So you lose weight at first and that's awesome, but as you continue you lose muscle as well and that is never good. You want to lose fat, not muscle and risk becoming skinny fat. Carbs are protein sparring, but most, not all, are doing a lower carb diet along with the decreased protein intake. I know all the arguments about why it is being suggested to lower protein for longevity and cognitive health, but feel keeping your muscle mass out weighs the benefit of eating lower protein. I am not suggesting high protein intake, just not low protein intake.
Most of my relatives and their friends lived a fairly long life, not all of them as I pointed out in my prior post. To Gundry's credit at least he is still pounding the pavement and looking for improvements for his patients, I totally respect that and feel he has some very good pieces to the health puzzle.
As we all try our best to get healthier, we sometimes miss the big picture, focusing on the smallest of details. I think Stavia speaking as a doc, has pointed this out before as well. You can obsess so much on one little detail, that the stress of worrying about it is , is more harmful than not making a small change at all. We should all look for what works best for ourselves. I would be foolish to suggest otherwise, but we have to look at all the variables, not just meds, supplements and diet. Again these are all just my opinions and like George has stated above, not suggesting that anybody make adjustments to their protocols, without checking with your own Docs. Very few could duplicate what George is doing and like I said he is a beast. Keep it up George proud of you, not easy to find that kind of dedication.
First be safe, be informed and keep sharing with this awesome community, best forum on the Internet.
Hi Frank, thank you for your post. You mentioned that some are too low in protein. What is your minimum target? Could you be in (mild) ketosis at that target level? What researchers do you follow on protein intake?
Chris
A person on a Gundry FB support group today asked why he had microwaved muffin recipes in his book. After a bit, he responded.
Steven Gundry wrote:I've written about this extensively before, but here I ago again. Years ago, a man cured his coronary artery disease by following my diet and made an appointment to meet me and thank me. He happens to make a diet soda out of Stevia. When I told him that even Stevia wasn't such a good idea, he correctly pointed out that people are going to drink soda no matter what, so giving them something that is the best of a bad situation was a good idea. We started talking about microwaves (he's a flavor chemist) and how I wanted to get heathy muffins into folks but that most people were not going to bake muffins for 25 minutes but they would if it took a minute in a microwave. So he told me that the easier I could make it to follow my crazy rules, the better for getting this to everyone. So, I went out and bought a microwave and the rest is history. You are surrounded by microwave energy! Get over it and get on with the important things in life. I am over in Vienna presenting at the World Congress of Polyphenols. In the plane from the States, I was exposed to the equivalent of two full body X-rays! Just to present my research and perhaps educate 500 people. Worth it? For me yes. If the answer for you is no, then I suggest never getting on a plane again. Using microwaves to change proteins doesn't mean it's changing you! Heating by any means changes proteins, that's what heat does. Have a muffin or not; just trying to help the most people get better Heath.
He's also mentioned that current food quality is better in many cases in France & Italy. A2 cows. Grain that wasn't dried with glyphosate, bread raised with yeast or sourdough & not a chemical... Also how people's guts in the states have been assaulted with chemicals, additives and antibiotics. Therefore have less defenses against the lectins.
