Does ketosis cause AD?

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Bhinebaugh
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Re: Does ketosis cause AD?

Postby Bhinebaugh » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:30 am

GeorgeN wrote:
apod wrote:
GeorgeN wrote:We eat a lot of resistant starches, so my carb intake varies from 90-180 grams/day mean 125g. 50-60g of that is fiber.

You might get a kick out of this article if you haven't stumbled across it (The Carbohydrate-Concentration (CC) Diet) : http://catalyticlongevity.org/the-cc-ca ... ated-diet/

I'm curious with eating one 2hr meal a day if you run into any digestive issues or micronutrient issues. It seems like Calcium / Zinc would tend to fall short, B1 could be on the low side, and some daily bloating would ensue (particularly with a huge RS-rich meal.) Do you have a daily broth or does this meal have a full ketogenic day's worth of sodium in that small 2hr window?

When I made an effort in the past to try to maximize fiber+rs, I'd look a bit like I'd eaten a small bowling ball for dinner. :D Do you take enzymes or betaine or use something like ginger or ACV to pull this off?


No issues. I intentionally don't push Calcium. It is a bad actor for afib in my experience and in the literature. I don't do bone broth. No enzymes or betaine or ginger. I sometimes make and consume magnesum acetate by reacting milk of magnesia with ACV in a 2:7 ratio. The ACV is not acidic after this.

As to the CC diet. My understanding of the biochem is that if you eat carbs in the absence of fat, fat does not get stored. Also vice versa. Chris Masterjohn talks about this in this very technical podcast.. Dr. Mercola was talking to me about keto cycling. He does it 2 days per week.


Just curious about resistant carbs since most carbs are off limit according to Dr Gundry I thought. Which ones do you eat? Sorry I'm a new learner.


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Re: Does ketosis cause AD?

Postby Tincup » Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:24 pm

Bhinebaugh wrote:Just curious about resistant carbs since most carbs are off limit according to Dr Gundry I thought. Which ones do you eat? Sorry I'm a new learner.


The following are his food lists from his Plant Paradox Book. How frequently you can eat resistant starches (which he says "moderation" for the carby ones) is dependent on the individual and how their metabolism works.

He is big on feeding the gut biome in his new Plant Paradox book - a shift from his 2008 Diet Evolution book.

PLANT PARADOX FOODS (1).pdf

KETO PLANT PARADOX FOODS.pdf
(more strict - he goes into detail for conditions he prescribes this for in his book).

We do things like jicama, green bananas, yuca, plantain, Japanese sweet potatoes off the top of my head.

On the other hand, after breaking my fast last night and eating a huge pile of food, my blood sugar was 69 mg/dL and ketones 3.0 this morning and 64 mg/dL and 3.0 before eating this evening. My most recent A1C was 4.6%, my wife's was <4.25% and my fasting insulin was 3.
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Re: Does ketosis cause AD?

Postby Bettylacy » Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:20 pm

Hi team APOE4-
Are we suppose to always be spilling ketones 24-7? I am checking more frequently doing dipstix for acetoacetate. I am + most all mornings now after 14+ hour fast, higher levels if I exercise. I understand about acetoacetate once ketoadapted this may not be +, since one is producing almost strictly Beta OH Butyrate Acid. (BOHB). Just wondering why I am + in am and not at other times in the evening. Maybe I'm having too many carbs? Although I am still low and this pm no carbs.

Enjoyed the Lo carb conference. Nice to see all my APOE family there!!! Great pictures of the Zoo exersion!
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Re: Does ketosis cause AD?

Postby Bhinebaugh » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:57 am

GeorgeN wrote:
Bhinebaugh wrote:Just curious about resistant carbs since most carbs are off limit according to Dr Gundry I thought. Which ones do you eat? Sorry I'm a new learner.


The following are his food lists from his Plant Paradox Book. How frequently you can eat resistant starches (which he says "moderation" for the carby ones) is dependent on the individual and how their metabolism works.

He is big on feeding the gut biome in his new Plant Paradox book - a shift from his 2008 Diet Evolution book.

PLANT PARADOX FOODS (1).pdf

KETO PLANT PARADOX FOODS.pdf
(more strict - he goes into detail for conditions he prescribes this for in his book).

We do things like jicama, green bananas, yuca, plantain, Japanese sweet potatoes off the top of my head.

On the other hand, after breaking my fast last night and eating a huge pile of food, my blood sugar was 69 mg/dL and ketones 3.0 this morning and 64 mg/dL and 3.0 before eating this evening. My most recent A1C was 4.6%, my wife's was <4.25% and my fasting insulin was 3.


Thank you very much. Lots of good info. Just had yuca for the first time the other night and loved it. I read his book a while back. I definitely need to read it again. I was put off at first by all the limitations but your results show whatever you are doing is working.


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Re: Does ketosis cause AD?

Postby TheresaB » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:55 am

Bettylacy wrote:Are we suppose to always be spilling ketones 24-7?


No. I forget who the speaker was, there were so many of them over the weekend, but I remember one said that the brain can't run on ketones all the time. The good new is that while the brain's glucose metabolism can become impaired, ketone metabolism, even in AD patients seems to be unaffected. The objective is to become metabolically flexible. What this means is the body is able to switch "gas tanks" easily from glucose to ketones. This only occurs after becoming "keto adapted" also known as "fat adapted." You see the glucose "gas tank" is very easy for the body to get to, that's why it relies on it first, and why since most standard Americans are constantly feeding that gas tank, it's the only one the body uses. The ketone "gas tank" is like deep storage, the body doesn't go to it unless it has to. Once you've adapted your body to readily switch between the two, that's called metabolic flexibility. That adaptation process can take up to a few weeks. I've heard people be hesitant to be "burning fat" all the time because that is what they think ketosis is, and they're afraid of losing too much weight, but it's that switching of gas tanks that maintains weight stability.
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Re: Does ketosis cause AD?

Postby Tincup » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:46 am

{Didn't realize Theresa was responding, too - we were writing at the same time and I posted after her as I'm more verbose :lol: }
Bettylacy wrote:Hi team APOE4-
Are we suppose to always be spilling ketones 24-7? I am checking more frequently doing dipstix for acetoacetate. I am + most all mornings now after 14+ hour fast, higher levels if I exercise. I understand about acetoacetate once ketoadapted this may not be +, since one is producing almost strictly Beta OH Butyrate Acid. (BOHB). Just wondering why I am + in am and not at other times in the evening. Maybe I'm having too many carbs? Although I am still low and this pm no carbs.


Betty, I would not worry about it. The urine stick is too crude a tool for what you are trying to do, because it only measures excess acetoacetate. If you really wanted to see what was happening on a real time basis you'd need either the Ketonix breath acetone meter (which doesn't work well with my high fiber Gundry diet, because the sensor also reacts to methane - so it will work when I'm multiday fasting) or the $600 + $50/month mass spectrometer acetone meter we saw at the conference. Not that I think any of this is necessary. If you are one whose brain functions better on higher ketones (not me - makes no difference), then you'll know from that if you are making ketones. If you had a reason to always be in ketosis - like epilepsy or if you had a glioblastoma and you were following Dr. Seyfried's glucose (in mmol/L)/ ketone ratio <1 protocol, that would be a different story. My perspective is the big thing is having the ketone pathway functioning well is most important. Not reaching for any particular level of ketones all the time. I don't think there is a big benefit to that for general purposes. I look at ketones as a proxy for insulin. If you have ketones, then insulin has to be relatively low. I consider myself to be in "dual fuel mode" which automatically switches to whatever is available and needed. This, to me, is a great benefit.

Bhinebaugh wrote:Just curious about resistant carbs since most carbs are off limit according to Dr Gundry I thought. Which ones do you eat?

I was put off at first by all the limitations but your results show whatever you are doing is working.


Also Jerusalem Artichokes are a great resistive starch.

As to restriction, I think that huge benefits can be gained by going with fixing your metabolic system as Stavia notes in her primer.. Fasting, intermittent or otherwise as Jason Fung talks about in his book or blog (something like 30 posts on fasting on his blog starting with this one) is to me less restrictive, combined with a relatively low carb diet.

My wife and I happen to be vacationing with Stavia and her sister and last night Stavia described the chronic conditions of a number of her "typical" patients. A low carb diet perhaps with some form of fasting would make a huge difference in ~90-95% of their conditions. It isn't that she hasn't tried, it is that they won't do it. I have an 80 year old friend and 6-7 years ago, after I described a low carb diet, he said, "I did that during grad school for my PhD." He implemented one, but not horribly strict as his wife fixes him dinner (& she's not doing this) and they travel extensively. Anyway, he lost 45 pounds (and is not a stick now), got off all his blood pressure meds (and now takes no meds). He is his doctor's poster child as a great patient. I've looked at his blood markers and all are good to spectacular. His A1C is ~5.1. Even in the "statins should be in the water mentality," his lipids are great.

Not sure people have to be a strict as we are to gain great benefit. Most criticism of Dr. Gundry's program I hear isn't that it doesn't work, it is that it is too restrictive. This could be valid. Depends on your priorities. Having taken care of my mother during her dementia during her last years, I am willing to push myself hard. For those with autoimmune, the program is likely very worthwhile.

From a 30,000' view, I look at ApoE4 as inflammatory (which is good in an acute sense and bad in a chronic sense) and well adapted to depravation. Hence maladapted for living in the affluent first world. So I put myself through periodic depravation to minimize chronic inflammation.
Last edited by Tincup on Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does ketosis cause AD?

Postby Bettylacy » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:47 am

Thanks Theresa! I remember amidst the onclave of speakers those words "metabolic flexibility". I like the sounds of that and appreciate the metaphor of going between the gas tanks. Its good to know all the biochemical and physiological reasons behind ketodaption, of which we received lots of at the covention,. It's another thing to be able to put this process in simple terms so the majority of people can understand. Thanks again for this.
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Re: Does ketosis cause AD?

Postby Bettylacy » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:05 am

George appreciate your views and term "dual fuel". When I can stand back from the terror of memory and cognitive impairment a bit, I find this APOE4 gene so interesting in our evolution. From aiding and abeiting our species in it's survival, to hampering our development in the modern world of high stress and high carbohydration (made that one up), I'm appreciating your's and our groups N=1 expericment's. We are part of the new paradigm shift towards individualized and personalized model of health care. Knowledge is power and also the "balm of Gilead" for our sensitive APOE4 influenced brains and bodies.
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Re: RE: Re: Does ketosis cause AD?

Postby Stavia » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:15 pm

Bettylacy wrote:Hi team APOE4-
Are we suppose to always be spilling ketones 24-7? I am checking more frequently doing dipstix for acetoacetate. I am + most all mornings now after 14+ hour fast, higher levels if I exercise. I understand about acetoacetate once ketoadapted this may not be +, since one is producing almost strictly Beta OH Butyrate Acid. (BOHB). Just wondering why I am + in am and not at other times in the evening. Maybe I'm having too many carbs? Although I am still low and this pm no carbs.

Enjoyed the Lo carb conference. Nice to see all my APOE family there!!! Great pictures of the Zoo exersion!
Betty, I wake at about 0.3 to 0.4mmol/l then rise over the day. I've never tested my urine ketones so dont have a clue if they'd be positive in the morning.

I personally believe for a healthy e4 there is a tipping point that depends on the sum of all the interventions. And then of course the interventions need to be sustainable over a (hopefully long and healthy) lifetime.

TLDR version: I think its ok to not be in ketosis 24/7 if its part of a range of sustainable strategies for a currently cognitively intact individual.

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Re: RE: Re: Does ketosis cause AD?

Postby Stavia » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:19 pm

Bettylacy wrote:Thanks Theresa! I remember amidst the onclave of speakers those words "metabolic flexibility". I like the sounds of that and appreciate the metaphor of going between the gas tanks. Its good to know all the biochemical and physiological reasons behind ketodaption, of which we received lots of at the covention,. It's another thing to be able to put this process in simple terms so the majority of people can understand. Thanks again for this.
I personally find it very handy to be able to switch to carb burning and back to ketosis easily while travelling (or binge eating carbs under stress....slinks away ashamed....)
After 3 years I can switch back easily within a handful of days.

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