How much protein to eat?

[Tincup]

Tincup,

In the context of remedying sarcopenia in the over-65s, insulin is helpful (within limits, of course).

Some carbs along with protein & fat intake following vigorous exercise should work better, than a very low-carb meal, against sarcopenia. Especially if the fat is rich in omega-3.

In this context, it's the insulin level within an hour or two of the meal that makes the most difference. Even 10 mIU/L insulin during this window might suffice for preserving muscle. Without carbs and with n-6 polyunsaturated fats, that's more difficult to reach.

For assessing insulin sensitivity in people without beta-cell dysfunction, measurements made 2 hours or more after a loading dose of glucose are useful.

Thanks Searcher. I do have a habit of coming home from a super-slow workout on the 5th day of a fast and breaking it (within an hour of working out) with cassava sugar (no fructose) and whey. No n-3's (or other fats) but an insulin spike with protein.

Noted in a presentation this weekend that protein by itself did not have a strong insulin spiking effect, but combined with carbs, it did.

[mike]

So reluctantly I am going to increase the calories and protein and have already begun weight training twice a week. Ketones will have to wait for now.

Jafa, I've been following a keto diet that specifically requires a lot of protein. You will be in ketosis if you keep your carbs down. I'm 6'3" and male, and I'm required to eat at least 160 gr protein per day and less than 40 gr carbs. Fat is a range depending on goal. I've been on this diet for two years. I lost 60 pounds the first year. This year I've been concentrating on bulking up muscle, which I've been able to do while keeping my weight constant.

[Jafa]

Thanks Mike. I don’t have the luxury of risking 40 pounds, or even 4 pounds with a BMI around 19. Have decided that severe carb restriction is just too risky and as I never felt any better when I did achieve mild ketosis, it’s a low payoff strategy for me. I guess it just shows one recipe doesn’t work for us all. I have taken on board the elevated risk of sarcopaenia with insufficient protein intake and now aim for around 1.2g/kg per day, so around 60g/day. Carbs are around 80g/day, and on that regimen I run an HbA1c of 30 (5.0 US). Have retired the keto meter

[SusanJ]

Have decided that severe carb restriction is just too risky and as I never felt any better when I did achieve mild ketosis, it’s a low payoff strategy for me.

Jafa, wise move. I struggle with the same, and have come to a very similar conclusion. I'm aiming for 1.5 g/kg per day at the moment to support additional weight training. My carbs are more in the 120 g/day range. I just lost too much weight this summer when I was ill, and have to get very serious about regaining my fitness. Went down to 112 pounds at one point. Way too thin.

I also suspect that women have an additional challenge of figuring this diet stuff out after menopause that perhaps men don't have. My opinion at the moment, although I've been doing some casual research to figure out the moving parts of my low weight/sarcopenia.

[mike]

Noted in a presentation this weekend that protein by itself did not have a strong insulin spiking effect, but combined with carbs, it did.

Which argues that Protein to Glucose is demand driven, not supply driven, so extra protein does not mean extra glucose, unless it is needed. Much of the research talks about protein / body weight, which makes no sense to me. The amount of protein should be determined by a person's lean body mass, to get a better sense of what is needed to support a person's existing muscles. You want to not lose muscle when dieting. If someone is extremely overweight, but has the same muscles as someone half their weight, they should be consuming similar protein.

Also, folks need to consider whether they are diabetic or not. I'm 58 and a diabetic for 20 years, and have little insulin response to carb spikes, but can handle protein. I do not respond well to added insulin. And also realize that much of the research out there really doesn't account for our particular ApoE4 genes. What may work for the majority of folks may not work for us. For folks who are thin, it is still possible to do a high protein, low carb diet, you just need to up the fat a bit for energy. If you have fat that you want to get rid of, then reduce the added fat, so your body will use what you already have. Except to make sure that I get my 160 gr / day of protein a day (based on my 6'3" height), I do little in the way of counting. I just flat out avoid the foods that I can't have (I get a very quick feedback and feel lousy when I don't). Also, I do Animal protein for the most part - it is much more dense in usable protein then vegi. This goes against much of what is said here, but two years ago, I was recovering from almost dying for the second time in a year. I used the diet, along with a couple of fasts to lose 60 lbs (270 to 210) the first year, and the second year I worked with a Physical Therapist to strengthen myself to the point were I can play volleyball again, while keeping my weight stable. This has worked for me.

[Stavia]

Thanks Mike. I don’t have the luxury of risking 40 pounds, or even 4 pounds with a BMI around 19. Have decided that severe carb restriction is just too risky and as I never felt any better when I did achieve mild ketosis, it’s a low payoff strategy for me. I guess it just shows one recipe doesn’t work for us all. I have taken on board the elevated risk of sarcopaenia with insufficient protein intake and now aim for around 1.2g/kg per day, so around 60g/day. Carbs are around 80g/day, and on that regimen I run an HbA1c of 30 (5.0 US). Have retired the keto meter

Jafa I didnt know you were protein restricted? Yes of course you need protein!!

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[Jafa]

Hi Stavia. I went back and checked my actual numbers, as I’m certainly no longer trying to restrict protein...I’m averaging 1.4-1.5g/kg, much higher than at the start of my “journey” when 1g/kg seemed to be standard fare.

Thanks again Susan, regaining body mass after illness, or indeed any setback seems to be really difficult. I’ve found that upping the resistance training seems to help. I’m interested to hear what you uncover regarding postmenopausal sarcopaenia.

[Stavia]

Hi Stavia. I went back and checked my actual numbers, as I’m certainly no longer trying to restrict protein...I’m averaging 1.4-1.5g/kg, much higher than at the start of my “journey” when 1g/kg seemed to be standard fare.

Thanks again Susan, regaining body mass after illness, or indeed any setback seems to be really difficult. I’ve found that upping the resistance training seems to help. I’m interested to hear what you uncover regarding postmenopausal sarcopaenia.

Jafa off the top of my head, to build muscle, isnt the target 2gm/kg?
Come to Crossfit with me!

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[Jafa]

Is it 2gm? Well guess I can do more then. I do feel better on higher protein. I think I’m gaining leg muscle from the twice weekly weight sessions (prolly not enough) but the weight dosnt change much. I recently ran half way around Panmure Lagoon with the granddaughters on their scooters. The 7 year old said “ You run pretty fast for an old lady, Nana” Not sure I’m ready yet for CrossFit. Lol.

[paddleperson]

[quote="mike"][quote="Tincup"] 40 Grams Carbs

Mike just curious. Is that 40 Grams total carbs or net? Thinking about fiber...
Thanks