Associations of protein and fiber with Amyloid-β

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Julie G
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Re: Associations of protein and fiber with Amyloid-β

Post by Julie G »

Sorry, just saw this.
No worries, thanks for weighing in :D
Malabsorption would lessen the impact of protein intake on amyloid-b in the brain. For example, if there were 100% malabsorption (zero absorption of protein), then the level of protein consumed would make no difference to Aβ in the brain.

However, the report was that the more protein consumed by older adults, the less likelihood of ‘high’ Aβ burden in the brain.
Gotcha'. Let's look at it a different way. We have a growing body of evidence (including this) that higher protein intake *only in older people* protects against Alzheimer's. We can't extrapolate that the same would be protective in younger people. So my hypothesis is a way of explaining why higher levels may be necessary in an older population. Malabsorption, infection, toxic insults, etc. (all conditions reflected in an older population) cause a reduced synthesis and/or an increased need for protein. When not met, that deficiency (hypoproteinemia) leads to sarcopenia and eventually Alzheimer's. Sound plausible?

I haven't read full-text, but can't wait. Have you?
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Re: Associations of protein and fiber with Amyloid-β

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Julie,

Older people's reduced mitochondrial respiratory capacity, with changed mitochondrial protein content, occurs independently of these other factors. Malabsorption, infection, toxicity etc. are not necessary for this reduced respiratory capacity to occur. Older people without any of such unhelpful factors would probably do well to eat more protein and include "high intensity interval training" (which is distinct from either aerobic or strength training). That helps remedy the reduced mitochondrial respiratory capacity, and upregulates helpful genes while downregulating unhelpful ones.

However, it's always worth excluding or correcting factors such as malabsorption, infection, toxicity etc.

I've learned to expect the unexpected with scientific studies. We're probably just scratching the surface of underlying mechanisms in the human body. The only real danger is that we become too attached to one or other theory, or to a subset of the relevant levers in the human body and mind. We play with only those levers we know about, and sometimes that can have unintended adverse consequences, perhaps masked until it is too late. Our bodies can cope with a huge range of insults and deficits, but sometimes we unknowingly take things to an extreme.
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Re: Associations of protein and fiber with Amyloid-β

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Searcher wrote:We play with only those levers we know about, and sometimes that can have unintended adverse consequences, perhaps masked until it is too late. Our bodies can cope with a huge range of insults and deficits, but sometimes we unknowingly take things to an extreme.
And I've come to a place where supplementation falls into that category. I feel one thing we can do here on this site, is to encourage people to really understand why a certain supplement might be useful for them, and to start low and slow. Just like pharmaceuticals, they can have side effects (some annoying, some major) and the individual dosage needs will vary greatly. Doctors start with "standard" doses, but that doesn't mean it's always the right dose for you, me or the next person who reads this post.
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Julie G
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Re: Associations of protein and fiber with Amyloid-β

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And I've come to a place where supplementation falls into that category. I feel one thing we can do here on this site, is to encourage people to really understand why a certain supplement might be useful for them, and to start low and slow. Just like pharmaceuticals, they can have side effects (some annoying, some major) and the individual dosage needs will vary greatly. Doctors start with "standard" doses, but that doesn't mean it's always the right dose for you, me or the next person who reads this post.
Strongly agree. I'm an advocate of adding one supplement at a time and carefully noting positive or negative side effects. I also think that it's extremely important to know WHY you are taking a supplement. Read the evidence behind it. be sure that it's purported benefits match your deficits. Carefully note if it's having an effect. IMHO, each of us needs to carefully tailor our stacks to meet our unique circumstances. I've noticed as I've healed, I'm taking much fewer supplements, in general, and some only on alternate days.

I still haven't been able to get my hands on full text of this paper. Anyone else? I may write the authors and ask for a copy... I love diving into paradoxes this this. I'd love to hear Valter Longo and Dan Buettner's take on this one ;).
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Re: Associations of protein and fiber with Amyloid-β

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I've just been reading Valter de Longo's book and he was saying about a different approach to nutrition for the over 65s, (basically not limiting things as much and including more general food, eggs and things he would restrict in those younger) Whereas for younger people he talks about limiting both sugar and protein and having 'fasting mimicking diet' weeks.
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Re: Associations of protein and fiber with Amyloid-β

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I've just been reading Valter de Longo's book and he was saying about a different approach to nutrition for the over 65s, (basically not limiting things as much and including more general food, eggs and things he would restrict in those younger) Whereas for younger people he talks about limiting both sugar and protein and having 'fasting mimicking diet' weeks.
Really interesting, Orange. Does he offer any explanation for the increased protein for those over 65? Dan Buettner, who's done the most work with centenarians, would disagree with that approach as would Dr. Gundry and likely Dr. Bredesen unless hypoprotenemia or other obvious clinical signs of a protein deficiency were present. This is an important nuance for us to tease out.
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Re: Associations of protein and fiber with Amyloid-β

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Julie G wrote: Does he offer any explanation for the increased protein for those over 65?
Older people with normal absorption of protein show an accumulation ("sequestration") of amino acids in their visceral organs, making relatively less dietary protein available to their muscles and the rest of their body.

Limited protein intake before the age of 65 is associated with lower all-cause mortality. But over the age of 65 it's associated with HIGHER all-cause mortality, especially from cancers. So, it's dangerous to limit protein in people over 65. That's roughly the age at which muscle wasting begins in earnest. Plant proteins are preferable to animal proteins because of the cancer risk associated with animal proteins.

Buettner might not be well informed about the age-related sequestration of amino acids, or prefer to ignore it. But he's an author and story-teller exercising poetic licence.
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Re: Associations of protein and fiber with Amyloid-β

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Older people with normal absorption of protein show an accumulation ("sequestration") of amino acids in their visceral organs, making relatively less dietary protein available to their muscles and the rest of their body.
Fascinating observation. Do you have a reference?
Buettner might not be well informed about the age-related sequestration of amino acids, or prefer to ignore it. But he's an author and story-teller exercising poetic licence.
True, but he's the closet thing we have to a modern day Weston Price ;)
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Re: Associations of protein and fiber with Amyloid-β

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9022534

There'll be more, but this came up on a quick search.
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Re: Associations of protein and fiber with Amyloid-β

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Julie G wrote:
I've just been reading Valter de Longo's book and he was saying about a different approach to nutrition for the over 65s, (basically not limiting things as much and including more general food, eggs and things he would restrict in those younger) Whereas for younger people he talks about limiting both sugar and protein and having 'fasting mimicking diet' weeks.
Really interesting, Orange. Does he offer any explanation for the increased protein for those over 65? Dan Buettner, who's done the most work with centenarians, would disagree with that approach as would Dr. Gundry and likely Dr. Bredesen unless hypoprotenemia or other obvious clinical signs of a protein deficiency were present. This is an important nuance for us to tease out.
I think it mainly seemed based on the centenarians he was looking at and what they ate. I will have a look in the book ( again later and check. He also recommended less times of doing the week of fasting-mimicking the more generally healthy you are, like every 6 months or so if better health and more frequently if more unhealthy / overweight etc. When younger I mean.

It looks like most of use with E4 would fall into the 'once every three months' category- 'for average weight patients with at least one risk factor for diabetes, CVD, cancer or neurogenerative disease"

OK, here we go. P84 Longevity Diet in Summary: (this is what he means to do generally- not during the fasting weeks but day to day)

"If you are below the age of 65, keep the intake of protein low (0.31 to 0.36 grams per pound of body weight) That comes to 40 to 47 grams of protein per day for a person weighting 130 pounds, and 60 to 70 grams per day for someone weighing 200 to 220 pounds. Those beyond age 65 should slightly increase their protein intake, including fish, eggs, white meat and products derived from goats and sheep, to preserve muscle mass. Consume beans, chickpeas, green peas, and other legumes as your main source of protein".

So it seems the explanation is about the muscle mass, I think. He also recommends muscle toning exercises so maybe that is related.

He says (P86) "Until age 65-70, depending on weight and frailty, undergo five days of fasting mimicking diet every 1-6 months" So it seems it is something he doesn't recommend for those over this age.

I noticed, he also recommends, in general 2 meals and day but 3 meals a day for this over 65- it seems it is not just about protein but nourishment in general.
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