ApoE4.Info

ApropoE4 wrote:

floramaria wrote:
He doesn't say lectins are the cause of autoimmunity, but rather that lectins can cause leaky gut, and leaky gut is the cause of autoimmunity.

Unfortunately, just as we have not a single example of non-celiac gluten sensitivity, we have not a single example of "leaky gut" not related to specific conditions or drug side effects.

Wikipedia generously settles on calling it a "hypothetical medical condition". I'm happy to agree lectins cause a hypothetical condition.

I am a 100% amateur in this area. I am willing to admit that I am trying out dietary changes that may or may not have a beneficial impact on a hypothetical medical condition, “leaky gut”. In my mind it is still worth giving it a shot, since it may or may not be a. Causal factor in a condition which, based on blood tests, I do apparently have: Hashimoto’s .

I was able to find a few references in medical papers to Metabolic Endotoxemia. One pasted below. This Mdetabolic Endotoxemia could be the result of a hypothetical condition commonly referred to as “leaky gut” . I think “leaky gut” is generally defined as “higher gut permeability”, which is the wording used in medical journals.

The gut epithelium is an efficient barrier that prevents absorption of LPS derived from Gram-negative gut microbiota. Obesity, high-fat diet, diabetes, and NAFLD are associated with higher gut permeability leading to metabolic endotoxemia.Oct 1, 2013
Metabolic endotoxemia: a molecular link between obesity and ...
Endocrinology-Journals.org › jme › R51...

ApropoE4 wrote:

floramaria wrote:Unfortunately, just as we have not a single example of non-celiac gluten sensitivity, we have not a single example of "leaky gut" not related to specific conditions or drug side effects.

I'm curious if high levels of gliadin antibodies would be an example of non-celiac gluten sensitivity? I once ran a gut panel (while trying my best to avoid gluten) and my anti-gliadin levels were off the chart. In general, I don't feel great when I eat wheat (increased migraines, some nausea, and digestive issues.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-gliadin_antibodies

floramaria wrote:I am willing to admit that I am trying out dietary changes that may or may not have a beneficial impact on a hypothetical medical condition

I agree with you, Kenny, apod, and others that simple observations of direct experience are rich, compelling evidence to drive lifestyle experiments and adaptations. For example, I have no doubt that for some non-celiac people eating bread reliably leads to bloating / migraine / eczema / etc.

I agree with ApropoE4 that hard evidence for and biochemical description of the full causal chain from lectins and/or gluten -> intestinal permeability -> all the mysterious maladies is not yet available. I like that he has shared his skepticism regarding premature acceptance of this loose chain as a solid theory rather than a sketchy hypothesis. And while I do not dispute the capacity of observant clinicians to guide people to better health using a wealth of anecdotal experience, I don't think success at that activity logically requires us to believe the intuitively appealing explanations offered by some practitioners to communicate prescriptions and motivate patients.

ApropoE4 wrote:

Kenny4/4 wrote:It's been interesting reading the drama people have around Gundry and their interpetation of what "science" is and is not. The idea of only peer reviewed science having much validity is logical nonsense. Maybe Gundry is right maybe he isn't ? I don't really care as my rash and eczema were gone until I thought maybe I was dreaming and the rash went way per chance each time and I needed a study carried out by "science". So in the past two days I proceeded to eat a couple bratwursts with whole wheat bread and my rash (little bumps on my forearms in front of the crook in my elbow) came back. I thought maybe it was the inflammation from the bratwurst(Sat fat & AA). I then proceeded to eat some english muffins while doing my 16/8 fast with very moderate calories and healthy fat EVOO and fish oil. The rash stayed. I will go back to eating root veg and give you all an update in a few days. Of course some on here will come up with something to question this. I really don't care about your questions or drama as I know my rash will most likely be gone. I go with results and my rash has been gone most of the time for the past 10 months unless I eat beans, whole wheat, Oats, or peanuts. Almonds and walnuts don't have any affect and tomatoes don't really as well. My quality of life is much better!!

I don't know Dr. Gundry, I haven't bought his books, I have only watched videos online where he discusses his ideas.
So far by listening to his advice about lectins my rash has been gone. That is science enough for me! My life is better!

I'm happy your life is better.

I haven't read enough of this forum but it really sounds very much like you have an allergy. I assume you've ruled that out as a cause of your rash.

Science does not require peer reviews, but it does require the truth.

Yes my battery of allergy tests from a year ago showed negative on Wheat, Oats and Corn. I was negative on everything 40 or so different items ( dog, dust mites etc.)

The truth is my rash is gone and I am happy.

Maybe it's lectins? maybe it's not? and I don't care as I will take serendipity every time. Unfortunately some peoples idea of science and testing is not as open to serendipity as mine.

MarcR wrote:

floramaria wrote:I am willing to admit that I am trying out dietary changes that may or may not have a beneficial impact on a hypothetical medical condition

I agree with you, Kenny, apod, and others that simple observations of direct experience are rich, compelling evidence to drive lifestyle experiments and adaptations. For example, I have no doubt that for some non-celiac people eating bread reliably leads to bloating / migraine / eczema / etc.

I agree with ApropoE4 that hard evidence for and biochemical description of the full causal chain from lectins and/or gluten -> intestinal permeability -> all the mysterious maladies is not yet available. I like that he has shared his skepticism regarding premature acceptance of this loose chain as a solid theory rather than a sketchy hypothesis. And while I do not dispute the capacity of observant clinicians to guide people to better health using a wealth of anecdotal experience, I don't think success at that activity logically requires us to believe the intuitively appealing explanations offered by some practitioners to communicate prescriptions and motivate patients.

Well said and I agree Marc.

On one extreme are people who have an untreatable condition that want to believe that something will work no matter the disconnection from proof or testing. There are plenty of psudeo doctors willing to fill their schedule books and make their mortgage payments by believing they are helping these people with tenuous treatments.

On the other extreme are people that don't believe anything until it has been proven .........and they see it's real life cosequences. I can only think of smoking and how we knew for years (since 1948) that it caused lung cancer and heart disease but people questioned it until they lost someone close to them (smoking rates don't significantly decline until 1980).

Then there is the middle which ranges from- "strict well done science only please" to playing the "let's make an association" game.

I believe our current research misses a lot as it tends to take a single Hypothesis and tests it. It is a slow and singular proccess for the most part.
We should use our powers of observation and listen to a patients or our own past history,genetics, eating and life habits. We can then reflect upon them as we look for marker changes, while trying to optimize markers in tests. When we do this we are driving the bus in real time so to speak.
I admit that this method is ripe for abuse and people can see things they want to see but I believe it is a much faster way of solving problems than the slow dogma of today's hypothesis testing. The new method is a form of Bayesian Inference that hands things over at some point to frequentist methods and strict scientific testing.
I also agree once an observation is converted to a hypotyhesis it should be tested rigorously and peer reviewed. I think we tend to mock those that are in the observation, reflection , "hey this might be something" end of things. I think this is wrong headed as it cuts down on the number of roots and branches that feed the solution tree. I say all this above in relation to the thread which Dr. Gundry throws out that he has observed "lectins" cause inflammation in some of his patients. I have observed this with my own body as well. Is it lectins or something else ? I don't know. I do know some people seem to not be open to the possibility that it could be "lectins" causing inflammation and CAD risk as eating vegetables and grains is generally associated with longevity (Blue Zones). I understand the questioning but I also think they are pruning their solution tree so they can see the branch they picked out better. Why would somebody not believe that lectins or something in these foods isn't causing inflammation to some people? Gundry sees it in his tests and It causes it it in my body.

Kenny4/4 wrote:You appear to be a researcher Brian. Are you? What advice do you have for us 4's to mitigate our risk of Alzheimer's and CAD?

I'm not a researcher but my new job (as of a year ago) involves surveying and "pooling" the ideas of scientists around the world to try to advance age-reversal research, and, to the extent possible, age-reversal treatments. (Because I have learned so much about research gerontology, I have actually been asked to be a coauthor on a couple papers. More on that when I'm allowed to disclose details. At that point, I suppose I'll be a researcher of sorts.)

My view is that since advanced age is, by far, the most important risk factor for late-onset dementia, working to slow aging is where I feel that I can make a good contribution to the cause we share here.

But it will be a while before we have validated age-reversal therapies. For now, my advice would be to read Stavia's primer, which provides a great framework in which to understand what practical options exist today to lower your risk of dementia (and CAD).

People willing to try experimental age-reversal therapies could check in with their healthcare provider about whether or not it would make sense. I've tried the following:

- Calorie restriction (initiate it slowly if over 45 or 50, and don't skimp on protein).

- Rapamycin. (Search our forum for lots of info on this.)

- Dasatinib + quercetin combination, taken only periodically (once every 4-24 months).

- Biologics. (Stem cells, young plasma, etc.)

Aside from CR, I'd feel uncomfortable "advising" anyone to try these. But it might be worth it to look into them. Suggest opening a new thread if you want to delve into this further.

Brian

My $0.02: I do wish Dr. Gundry would submit his studies for peer review and I'm uncomfortable with how aggressively he sells his products. But he's clearly a very intelligent person with a professional history that reassures me to some extent.

Now my N:1 perspective - I picked up the Plant Paradox Diet book because I've read a number of authors who say you need to heal your leaky gut but they don't provide much information on how to do it. There are a number of young adults in my family who are very overweight, and my husband had diverticulitis and had to have part of his colon removed about 20 years ago. He struggles with digestive issues, foggy brain, exhaustion, and arthritic pain. Plus he had a quadruple bypass a year ago. His doctors have nothing to offer him except statins, BP meds, tums, nsaids, and migraine meds.

I lost 40 lbs using the Atkins diet several years ago, but recently it wasn't keeping the weight off as effectively for me, and I suppose because of my E3/E4 status, my LDL cholesteral is high (205). So I gave Plant Paradox a try and found that on it I am able to maintain my target weight and that when I follow it faithfully my morning blood glucose is low. For me, it's very similar the the Bredeson Ketoflex diet, but with a great addition - resistant starches.

My daughter, who has maintained a horrific diet over the last several years, is now trying Plant Paradox. She couldn't manage the high fat/high protein nature of Atkins, but she actually likes Plant Paradox and has been able to stay on it. She feels better, her skin and hair look much better, and she has lost a little bit of weight. Sadly my husband is looking for mainstream medical help.

The standard american diet is a disaster for my family, and I think there is something in their genetic makeup that makes them more sensitive than many others who eat similarly. Could it be lectins prying open their gut walls? I don't know, but I think it's worth trying Plant Paradox, given the impacts I've seen in myself and my daughter.

I've been lurking on apoe4.info, enjoying all the information here. I will introduce myself soon.

DebbieG wrote:I've been lurking on apoe4.info, enjoying all the information here. I will introduce myself soon.

Hi DebbieG,

I know you said you will introduce yourself soon, so I won't belabor the point but we would love to hear your story and learn more about you. If so inclined, you can post your story in the Our Stories Forum. And even though you've been a site member for quite a while, I still want to welcome you. So, Welcome!

I imagine you have already read the Primer written by a physician member and that you are somewhat comfortable with using the site (Search, Wiki), but if not, please feel free to Private Message me.

I agree wholeheartedly with you about the SAD. It does seem to be truly sad and the fact that you and your daughter are feeling better certainly says something about Gundry's diet.

Thanks for posting and for being part of the community DebbieG. We are truly glad you are here. Keep on posting!

- Carrie B

I appreciated reading this thread and participants being open and straight forward. I am currently not eating lectins, dairy or saturated fat from animals.( I cheat about once a week with less than 4 oz of grass fed lamb) Reduction of LDL's is immediate goal. I am following a combined protocol of Bredesen, Gundry and Mercola(exercise). I appreciate the progression of discovery from testimony to Randomized double blind placebo control with peer review. Experience has shown all has importance. Trending from one pill solves all to individualized treatment plan considering genetic, environmental(air, water, food and emotional experience) and symptoms seem to be the direction of all healing practices in this century which I applaud. Sharing thought with others from research and testimony to recipes and emotional support is the gift of this website. Carryon!

This is an interesting topic that I researched over a year before I found out about my 4/4 status. My husband (who is homozygous for the MTHFR gene variant) had a high coronary calcium score. Cardiologist wanted him on statins, but I did a lot of research on pubmed and found the studies about pomegranate juice and dates. My husband, whose cholesterol was 220 has brought it down to 150 range by switching to a mediterranean diet and adding a glass of pomegranate juice and 4-5 dates to his daily routine.... no statins. What's good for the heart is good for the brain. And as a red wine lover, who has given up the daily glass or two, I have simply replaced my wine glass content with the pomegranate juice and don't even miss it!! By the way...it has to be organic, NOT from concentrate. Cheers!