'Increased midlife triglycerides predict brain β-amyloid and tau pathology 20 years later'

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circular
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'Increased midlife triglycerides predict brain β-amyloid and tau pathology 20 years later'

Post by circular »

Independent of ApoE4 ...

Increased midlife triglycerides predict brain β-amyloid and tau pathology 20 years later
Hopefully someone has some time to dive into this and also assess the statistical gobbledygook? They also looked at lipid subfractions.
Increased levels of medium and large low-density lipoprotein subfractions were significantly associated with abnormal Aβ PET and large high-density lipoprotein particles were associated with decreased risk of abnormal Aβ PET.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.
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Re: 'Increased midlife triglycerides predict brain β-amyloid and tau pathology 20 years later'

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I am re-reading Bredesen's "The End of Alzheimer's", having noted that he has an updated version. Just last night, I ran across an assertion that very low triglycerides (especially under 50 mg/dl), are observed in patients who have toxicity-related Alzheimer's. I remember when I read this the first time in 2017, and was quite alarmed because my triglycerides trend very low, as low as 36 mg/dl in one of my annual labs. Wanting to understand this, and having performed futile searches to find some research on low triglycerides, I wrote to the Bredesen research team and asked about the science behind this, but never received an explanation. So I am left to speculate about why my triglycerides are so low, and I have no idea about how this relates to AD pathology. I, too, would love to understand the lipid profiles in the context of Alzheimer's. Paper's like this one seem to be reporting a correlation, and it is probably an important one, but I don't understand the whole context, and I don't understand their tables since they use regression models instead of just reporting the triglyceride values they measured. So here they seem to see a correlation between high triglycerides and AD pathology, and Bredesen writes that there may be a correlation between low triglycerides and development of AD. It's hard to know what to take away from these reported observations.
E3/E4, My mother was diagnosed with AD at age 73, my age on my next birthday.
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Julie G
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Re: 'Increased midlife triglycerides predict brain β-amyloid and tau pathology 20 years later'

Post by Julie G »

Hey, Circ! We discussed a similar paper in this thread.
Just last night, I ran across an assertion that very low triglycerides (especially under 50 mg/dl), are observed in patients who have toxicity-related Alzheimer's.
Good observation, FF. It helps to think of triglycerides in terms of “energy.” High levels could be indicative of OVER-nutrition definitely correlated with AD. On the other hand, those with toxicity-related AD are under increased stress and in need of extra energy (which can manifest as low triglycerides) to combat the specific threat.

Are you using a low carb diet? Is your HDL also high? That can also be a side effect of this dietary approach.
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Re: 'Increased midlife triglycerides predict brain β-amyloid and tau pathology 20 years later'

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The way I understood it is that apoe4 brain cells fail to express normal numbers of LDL receptors for LDL particle uptake. I assumed - maybe wrongly - that this explained the tendency towards higher LDL levels in blood - the particles just weren't taken up. Like excess blood sugar in diabetics.

In apoe4s it seems to be linked to impaired recycling of endosomes. Bits of cell membranes containing these receptors are engulfed into cells, becoming endosomal "bubbles" but aren't properly recycled back to the cell membranes latter. There are experimental approaches take seem to fix this in cell cultures. In these cell cultures these treatments eliminate the pathology.

Not sure about the toxicity-related AD. I'd presume that this system is working fine for them. Seems to be a apoe4 problem, specifically.

I assumed - again, maybe incorrectly - that this higher circulating LDL was one of the links between AD and CVD in apoe4s.
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Re: 'Increased midlife triglycerides predict brain β-amyloid and tau pathology 20 years later'

Post by Julie G »

I assumed - again, maybe incorrectly - that this higher circulating LDL was one of the links between AD and CVD in apoe4s.
Plausible explanation for our higher LDL, but help us understand how this hypothesis relates to triglycerides.

FWIW, it’s been assumed that our higher LDL is somehow linked to our increased risk for AD and CVD, but it remains unproven. The correlation between LDL (alone) and both AD and CVD is pretty thin.
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Re: 'Increased midlife triglycerides predict brain β-amyloid and tau pathology 20 years later'

Post by Fiver »

OK, here's an attempt at lipidology. Check my math! ;)

Hallow particles which transport non-water soluble substance in the blood include the apolipoprotein particles.

The cargo of each type differs. For example, fatty substances from the diet are picked up and transported throughout the body by chylomicrons. The liver produces other fatty substances and packages them into very low density lipoprotein vLDL particles - which can be converted to LDL along the way. The particles carrying cargo to the body have protein "address labels" on their surface. Each different label gets a letter. In this case the shared address label is apoprotein B. It binds the a family of LDL receptors (LDLr) on "hungry" cells and the passing particles are engulfed into these cells.

Each apolipoprotein type has a different size, density, and carries different %s of different cargos. They also have different tendencies to stick to and slip into vessel walls - causing atheroslerosis.

In the body:
Chylomicrons contain about 90% triglycerides and only 3% cholesterol. (from your gut)
vLDL contain about 70% triglycerides (from the liver)
LDL contains only 10% triglycerides and about 26% cholesterol (from conversion of vLDL, when the package contains are tinkered with and a new address label is added to forward the package along to the next stop; this is "bad cholesterol")

HDL, which carries cargo in the opposite direction - from body systems back to the liver has a different address label protein, of course. This is "reverse cholesterol transport". In this case it requires apoA. HDL cargo is about 5% triglycerides. This is "good cholesterol".

So if cells lack LDL family-receptors the cells can't bind to and take up chylomicrons, vLDL, or LDL as effectively. And both cholesterol and triglyceride levels can go up, because the particles remain in the blood.

High levels of old LDL allows opportunities for lipid oxidation and atherosclerosis.

In the brain:
These particles don't generally pass the blood-brain-barrier. Instead all brain cholesterol etc. is made inside the brain, mostly by astrocytes. These particles are slightly different then those circulating in the body. Some of the address labels are different, for example. But those hungry brain cells still use LDL receptors to bind to them and engulf them. So a lack of these receptors presumable could create a similar scenario in the brain. The cells can't take up the substances they need, and they float around.

So, if you "fix" the receptors hungry cells get fed and circulating levels of all cargo types go down.

It's way more complicated and I struggle to understand it all but.....I think this is basically right. It's good to keep in mind that triglycerides and phospolipids can be broken done into three or two fatty acid chains and then rebuilt inside cells. So free fatty acid cargo and triglyceride cargo can be interchangeable at some points.

Ironically, apoE is one of these protein address labels, on vLDL and intermediate density lipoprotein particles (IDL) in the blood and on some particles inside of the brain. So apoe4 - the protein - gets around easily outside of inside of cells - and into the nucleus, surprisingly. The shape of apoe2 and 3 work well to form good, strong lipoprotein particles for cargo transport. Apoe4 has a kink, causing the particles to be poorly shaped and less effective at carrying cargo.....and apoe4 binds poorly to LDL receptors for uptake, it co-binds with AB, and it sneaks into the nucleus to alter the expression of 100s or 1000s of genes.

Sorry, that got long. Basically, cholesterol and triglycerides are often co-transported. So a malfunction in the uptake system leaves both doing laps throughout the circulatory system.

Staiva? MarkR? Did I get that right?
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Re: 'Increased midlife triglycerides predict brain β-amyloid and tau pathology 20 years later'

Post by Julie G »

Sorry, that got long. Basically, cholesterol and triglycerides are often co-transported. So a malfunction in the uptake system leaves both doing laps throughout the circulatory system.

Nice job, Fiver! The part that I’m still struggling to understand is your presumption that poor LDLr activity results in both high LDL and TGs. For instance, many in our community have the former, but not the latter after adopting a lower carb approach. How do you explain this phenomenon?
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Re: 'Increased midlife triglycerides predict brain β-amyloid and tau pathology 20 years later'

Post by Fiver »

Ah. I see your point.

So in your example there are plenty of transport particles. But not a lot of one type of cargo.

Diet? Differential absorption? Liver metabolism? Those values for the composition of particle "cargos" are averages - it varies. Uptake can be molecule specific also.

I wonder if a NMR lipid profile quantifying particle sizes would help. Could be lots of partially filled LDL particles circulating.

It gets so complicated. I don't think anyone really understands it all. :?
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Re: 'Increased midlife triglycerides predict brain β-amyloid and tau pathology 20 years later'

Post by Fiver »

I was reading this last night - a good review of the role of lipids in AD, with a focus on stress responses. Some good information about cholesterol and TGs. Especially Figure 1.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4960866/
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Re: 'Increased midlife triglycerides predict brain β-amyloid and tau pathology 20 years later'

Post by Julie G »

Fiver, we need to meet for coffee! You're diving deeply into many of the same topics I am. I suspect that TGs, in particular the relationship to HDL, may end up being a modifiable risk factor for our genotype. I'm a keen observer of our members reported diet/lipid interactions and I've seen many with extraordinarily high TGs (near 1,000) get them below 100 by following a Mediterranean low carb approach combined with exercise and fasting. RU442 is a great example, but there are many others.

My guess is that this likely dovetails with peripheral APOE levels as described in this thread where you recently made some great observations. I can't help but wonder if increasing our peripheral APOE (through diet/lifestyle) can reduce our odds of developing Alzheimer's. It's true that we currently have no way of knowing the relationship between peripheral and central APOE, but I would suggest that it doesn't matter given the strength of Rasmussen's correlations with peripheral data alone. Also, I agree that low levels almost serve as a proxy for E4, but we have seen cases in Eric Reiman's work where E4 carriers were documented with very high levels so this capability does appear to be independent of APOE genotype.

We'll soon be announcing an opportunity for our members to track and tweak their plasmalogen levels (a surrogate for APOE) and correlate that information against diet/lifestyle in a group N=1 study. Stand by for more details to be shared soon. And, seriously, if you're interested in a Zoom coffee meet-up to discuss this more, I'd enjoy the opportunity. Anyone who's interested, please join in :D.
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