COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease

Insights and discussion from the cutting edge with reference to journal articles and other research papers.
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Re: COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease

Post by Quantifier »

TheBrain wrote:
I'm not a medical person, but it appears that at least in Israel, vaccinated people are having more trouble with the Delta variant than the unvaccinated. I've read (and heard) that unvaccinated people with natural immunity actually have broader immunity than those who are vaccinated.

I do understand Quantifier's point here (and thank you, Quantifier):
Quantifier wrote:When (for instance) 2/3 of the population is vaccinated, there are twice as many vaccinated people as there are unvaccinated ones. If the vaccine protects from infection at just under 50% you will have just more cases among vaccinated people than among unvaccinated people. If the protection from infection is higher, then the vaccination rate at which infection rates among vaccinated vs non-vaccinated equalize is higher.
I know Israel has a high vaccination rate, but it seems like something more is going on here. Per the article, even Israeli health officials are saying that the effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine against the Delta variant is "weaker" than hoped for.
The article you linked to contradicts your claim:

From there:
The “percent of cases that turn critically ill is now 1.6%, compared to 4% at a similar stage in the third wave when there were no vaccines,” Prof. Eran Segal, a computational biologist at the Weizmann Institute of Science who advises the coronavirus cabinet, tweeted on Friday.
With a relatively high vaccination rate the percentage of critically ill patients is only 40% of what it was when there were no vaccines. If the entire population were vaccinated that would mean the vaccine protects against critical illness by 60%.

And just to remind everyone, in the early days of the pandemic the hope was to get vaccines that would protect from severe illness and death by about 50%.

Also, specifically regarding Israel, the age distribution there skews younger than in most western nations (Israel has higher fertility rates than typical western countries) which places a lower ceiling to the vaccination coverage that can be achieved currently.
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Re: COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease

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Thanks, Quantifier.

Before reading your most recent post, I edited my last post to say that the Delta variant is weaker, which is a good thing.

But I wasn’t clear about my initial claim, so let me clarify that here. I was thinking of this fact: “according to Hebrew University researchers who advise the government, around 90% of newly infected people over the age of 50 are fully vaccinated.”

So it appears that vaccinated people over 50 are more susceptible to the Delta variant than unvaccinated people over 50. Would you agree?
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Re: COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease

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TheBrain wrote:But I wasn’t clear about my initial claim, so let me clarify that here. I was thinking of this fact: “according to Hebrew University researchers who advise the government, around 90% of newly infected people over the age of 50 are fully vaccinated.”

So it appears that vaccinated people over 50 are more susceptible to the Delta variant than unvaccinated people over 50. Would you agree?
You can't conclude anything from that statement without knowing what percent of people over 50 are vaccinated. You need to know if the vaccinated people are over-represented among those who become infected with the delta variant. In any case, as long as fewer are becoming severely ill or dying (which seems to be the case) the vaccines are doing what they were intended to do.

ETA: See for instance Delta variant's trajectory in UK and Israel provides hope for US -- if we can keep vaccinating
In a statement released Monday, the Israeli government said that its analysis has shown the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine to provide 64% protection against infections caused by the Delta variant but 93% effective in preventing severe disease and hospitalizations, compared to research from May that reported it to be 97% effective.
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Re: COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease

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Quantifier wrote:
TheBrain wrote:But I wasn’t clear about my initial claim, so let me clarify that here. I was thinking of this fact: “according to Hebrew University researchers who advise the government, around 90% of newly infected people over the age of 50 are fully vaccinated.”

So it appears that vaccinated people over 50 are more susceptible to the Delta variant than unvaccinated people over 50. Would you agree?
You can't conclude anything from that statement without knowing what percent of people over 50 are vaccinated. You need to know if the vaccinated people are over-represented among those who become infected with the delta variant. In any case, as long as fewer are becoming severely ill or dying (which seems to be the case) the vaccines are doing what they were intended to do.
But doesn't the quote I shared say that "around 90% of newly infected people over the age of 50 are fully vaccinated"? That suggests to me that 10% of newly infected people over the age of 50 aren't fully vaccinated or vaccinated at all.
ETA: See for instance Delta variant's trajectory in UK and Israel provides hope for US -- if we can keep vaccinating
In a statement released Monday, the Israeli government said that its analysis has shown the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine to provide 64% protection against infections caused by the Delta variant but 93% effective in preventing severe disease and hospitalizations, compared to research from May that reported it to be 97% effective.
That's interesting. Then, I wonder why the Israel government just approved booster shots.

The CNN article contradicts the article Israel says Pfizer Covid vaccine is just 39% effective as delta spreads, but still prevents severe illness. Here are the "key points" from this article:
Pfizer and BioNTech’s Covid-19 vaccine is just 39% effective in Israel where the delta variant is the dominant strain, according to a new report from the country’s Health Ministry.

The two-dose vaccine still works very well in preventing people from getting seriously sick, demonstrating 88% effectiveness against hospitalization and 91% effectiveness against severe illness, according to the Israeli data.
Perhaps the low 39% statistic is about the vaccine's effectiveness in preventing infection (and transmission)? Otherwise, the percentages aren't too different between the two articles.
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Re: COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease

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TheBrain wrote: That's interesting. Then, I wonder why the Israel government just approved booster shots.
The latest I know is they are currently offering a third vaccine to immune-deficient individuals and considering it for people aged 60+ in the near future. (It would probably work better to use a third vaccine from a different manufacturer because there is some evidence that mixing and matching provides better immunity, but I'm not sure their contracts allow it.)

ETA: The explanation given is that among older people immunity tends to drop over time more than among younger people.
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Re: COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease

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I'm listening to an interview of Dr. Robert Malone, the inventor of mRNA, on the Bannon's War Room podcast (episode# 1,120) from July 24, 2021. Here are some things that he reported:

1. We can't reach reach herd immunity through these vaccines; the only way we can do so is through natural infection, which is almost always how herd immunity is achieved. Natural infection provides broad and more durable (i.e., lasting) immunity. This inability of these vaccines to result in herd immunity is related to virus transmission; the end point for these vaccines was not about stopping virus transmission. These vaccines are good at protecting from disease and death in the original variant.

2. The disclosure from Pfizer that we need booster shots is a "tell." This means that the durability from the Pfizer vaccine is "modest at best." Pfizer says the vaccinated need to be re-vaccinated after six months, which means they know the vaccine's effectiveness wanes at six months.

3. Nurses and other healthcare providers in Florida, for example, are reporting that the majority of people they're encountering in their hospitals with severe disease are vaccinated.

4. Eighty percent of the people who are at highest risk, the elderly, are fully vaccinated. So the vaccine uptake for these people is very high. He says this is good.

BTW, Dr. Malone got the virus early last year and developed long-haul Covid. A rumor going around at that time was that the vaccine would help with long-haul Covid, so he got the vaccine himself, even though he had natural infection. The vaccine didn't help with that, and he now has additional long-lasting effects to deal with.
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Re: COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease

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TheBrain wrote:I'm listening to an interview of Dr. Robert Malone, the inventor of mRNA, on the Bannon's War Room podcast (episode# 1,120)
3. Nurses and other healthcare providers in Florida, for example, are reporting that the majority of people they're encountering in their hospitals with severe disease are vaccinated.
This certainly is different that what is reported elsewhere. For example,

"The people who end up in the hospital with severe COVID-19 are almost all unvaccinated. At AdventHealth, about 95% of their inpatients with COVID-19 are unvaccinated as of Thursday. At Orlando Health, it was about 90% as of Wednesday.

“This has really become a tale of two cities. We’ve got the vaccinated and the unvaccinated,” Finkler {Dr. Neil Finkler, chief clinical officer for AdventHealth’s Central Florida division. } said. “The take-home message is: get the vaccine." Source: Orlando Sentinel

I saw an interview with a nurse in Atlanta. She said vaccinated who get sick enough to go to hospital might need some O2, while the unvaxed are going on respirators. Though I have 2 Pfizer shots and a J&J (another story), I think the best defense is to have stellar metabolism and no comorbidities. My wife and I were in a 13 month study. We did daily questionnaires and got tested periodically, both PCR and antibodies. On our ending antibody tests around 1 May, she had strong antibodies from the virus. Completely asymptomatic. We were testing temp 1 or 2x/day and all night HRV & heart rate among other metrics. I've been with her continuously and had no antibodies, so never caught what she had. We don't know when she got it as our previous antibody tests in late Dec were both negative. We also had negative nasal swab tests for travel reasons in March. I started my Pfizer series at the end of Feb and she started her Moderna series in mid-March.

As an aside, I suggested to a friend who'd had long COVID for 5 months to try 50 mg melatonin powder/day. He said it worked like a charm for both he and his wife. Said it was like they'd never had it.
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Re: COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease

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TheBrain wrote:I'm listening to an interview of Dr. Robert Malone, the inventor of mRNA, on the Bannon's War Room podcast (episode# 1,120) from July 24, 2021. Here are some things that he reported:

1. We can't reach reach herd immunity through these vaccines; the only way we can do so is through natural infection, which is almost always how herd immunity is achieved. Natural infection provides broad and more durable (i.e., lasting) immunity. This inability of these vaccines to result in herd immunity is related to virus transmission; the end point for these vaccines was not about stopping virus transmission. These vaccines are good at protecting from disease and death in the original variant.
We had herd immunity to the original version of the virus in locales where the vaccination rate + infection rate were high. You see that in waves of infection that suddenly collapse - it happened in Israel, it happened here in Washington state, where our 4th wave started, but remained a small blip compared to the third one. The newer variants are changing the picture, but the advantage of the mRNA-based vaccines is that they can be engineered to match different viral strains.

As for whether we ever achieved herd immunity with any vaccine to any disease - that's what's protecting us from constantly having to deal with measles and pertussis, for instance. We have entire generations that did not encounter these diseases in the wild. And we only get outbreaks when not enough people vaccinate their kids in a particular area.
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Re: COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease

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ApropoE4 wrote:And if the admins ban me for this and keep "TheBrain" active then this is the end of the site, pretty much. Or the solidifying of it as quack central.
Edit, since ApropoE4 did not respond to my request below, I deleted the offending posts.

Please read our Community Guidelines and edit and conform your posts to them. Especially:

Respect. All posts and private messages should be courteous. Disagree with ideas, not people. You may not attack, insult, undermine, or belittle anyone. This broad prohibition extends beyond other members and this community to the world at large.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion. TheBrain reported what she heard. You have every right to disagree, but not to label.
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Re: COVID-19 RNA Based Vaccines and the Risk of Prion Disease

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Tincup wrote: As an aside, I suggested to a friend who'd had long COVID for 5 months to try 50 mg melatonin powder/day. He said it worked like a charm for both he and his wife. Said it was like they'd never had it.
Tincup, can you share the mechanism(s) that are believed to be involved with melatonin helping to quell long covid symptoms, and what dose would be reasonable for this? My husband's friend hasn't been able to shake off long covid yet. For myself I worry about getting long covid more than anything, given my health history with chronic fatigue and inflammatory issues.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.
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