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Re: RE: Re: new e3/e4

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:15 pm
by Stavia
MAC wrote:ru442,

I have NO baseline functional bloodwork to reference. On the IR, how is this determined and if NOT IR, then does that change the carbohydrate management, or just reduce just because it's better for you?

Eating more fish and nuts and healthy veggies, not an issue.

I read on the SUPPLEMENTS section that taking fish oil supplements is NOT good for E4 carriers, so how to reconcile with eating more fish?

MAC the evidence has evolved.
If you read this whole ginormous thread which started in 2013 you can see that while previously evidence was that omega 3s did not work in e4s, now it seems that we might need more than non-e4s.

Which part of the supplements section do you refer to?

Re: RE: Re: new e3/e4

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:24 pm
by Stavia
MAC wrote:
I don't view your protocol as extreme IF there is an absolute connection to direct cognitive (ie, lack of brain destruction) benefit. Who would not follow this regiment if told categorically it would help prevent looming cognitive disease??!!

MAC, there is no protocol that has an absolute connection to lack of brain destruction. If anyone tells you categorically that their protocol has, I would personally be very suspicious.
Everyone, "experts" and our community alike, is taking their best guess in the context of the current body of evidence.

Re: new e3/e4

Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:12 pm
by TheresaB
You wrote,
You mention shellfish 1st priority intake and then white fish...can I consider all fish good to eat in the context of replacing meat? I mostly eat white fish or salmon?

In our first consult with Dr Gundry, he went over his dietary “rules” for ApoE4s, which means we have to limit animal protein/fats and eat no cheese. Non-ApoE4s have a little more latitude here, although they are still restricted as to amount and type of animal protein on his diet.

Our animal protein is limited to 4 ounces a day total and only in the form of shellfish, white fish, or 2 eggs . The shellfish and white fish should be wild caught only and the eggs should be omega-3 or pastured only. With shellfish, I think this mostly applies to shrimp. As I understand it, farmed raised animals tend to be fed grains and other things that are bad for us, so our food intake needs to be kept as “real” as possible.

We alternate these animal proteins in our evening meals adding one vegan meal a week where the protein source comes from something like Hemp Tofu, or Tempeh (fermented soy, so okay). The vegetarian meat substitutes that are now common in the freezer section of the grocery store are NOT allowed, except for any non-breaded Quorn products, which we can’t find locally anyway.

Regarding our evening meal: For an appetizer, we share a container of guacamole, we use jicama (resistant starch) in lieu of chips with it. George eats nuts, tiger nuts (resistant starch) and some sauerkraut or kim chi (fermented, good for the gut). I don’t eat that in the evening, that’s typically my lunch. (George only eats once a day, fasting for 22 hours, I only eat twice a day, fasting 16 hours). If dinner cooked with any oil, it’s always olive oil, no vegetable oils. We have a steamed vegetable, typically asparagus, artichokes or okra. We always have a big salad of raw veggies using Dr Wahl’s protocol of 1/3 deep, leafy green, 1/3 colored, and 1/3 sulfur. We top the salad with organic, unfiltered, Extra Virgin Olive oil and balsamic vinegar. And for a “treat” once a week we’ll have a resistant starch in the form of plantain chips, yucca fries, taro root, Okinawan sweet potatoes, something like that.

Ah, but I digress, …

From Dr Gundry's slide presentation at the Ancestral Health Symposium, “shellfish are emphasized as the animal protein of choice, if desired, owing to our observed sdLDL lowering when these foods were added. Particularly crab. Crab is incredibly effective at lowering small dense LDLs.”

You’re wondering about other sources of fish, beyond shellfish and white fish. During the Q&A session someone did ask about salmon, mackerel and sardines. Dr Gundry did acknowledge they are great sources of Omega-3 fats, but cautioned that they are also a source of animal protein and he mentioned two very large studies recently published that show that animal protein is just as obesogenic (tending to cause obesity) as sugar, something he says he’s been saying for the last 10 years and that he’ll talk about in his next book. He likes to restrict animal protein to reduce insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1), which he says is the best marker for accelerated aging. He said that the more he can take away animal protein from humans, particularly ApoE4s, the better off we are and that the belief is the ApoE3 gene came about to allow humans to handle meat proteins.

So this is an area where you're going to have to weigh the options for yourself.

Remember Dr Gundry got interested in this as cardiovascular surgeon, and a brilliant one at that. When he discovered he could reverse cardiovascular disease through diet and supplements, he resigned as chairman and professor of cardiothoracic surgery at Loma Linda University to devote his time to restorative medicine. He sought out ApoE4s to study because we’re more susceptible to cardiovascular disease. But now his emphasis is on overall wellness and longevity. I know you’ve been asking specifically about brain health. All I can say to that is the more I learn, the more I recognize that what’s good for the body is good for the brain. We are all exquisite examples of systems engineering.

And on your comment,
The fasting period (16 hrs) is extreme for me I think.

I didn’t start there, I’ve been working my way up and I still struggle with hunger issues sometimes. But getting off the carbs led to more even/low blood sugar levels which keeps feelings of extreme hunger to nonexistant levels. To help get over the hunger issues, I sometimes add coconut oil (because we have it in the house, I should probably switch to MCT oil when it’s exhausted) to my coffee in the morning. I suppose technically that breaks my fast, but since it’s a fat, it doesn’t spike my blood sugar, it's still helping increase my insulin sensitivity.

Re: new e3/e4

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:43 am
by Thx4thegenes
Quorn. Reminds me of this article. No thank you, I'd rather eat real food: ... itute.aspx

Re: new e3/e4

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:36 pm
by progranulindefect
Did Dr. Gundry have contact/patients who were 7th Day Adventists, as they live in Loma Linda, CA? If so, did he ever comment about them as they are a very long-lived group?

Re: new e3/e4

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:56 pm
by TheresaB
progranulindefect wrote:

Did Dr. Gundry have contact/patients who were 7th Day Adventists, as they live in Loma Linda, CA? If so, did he ever comment about them as they are a very long-lived group?

He has mentioned that they live longer. He's also mentioned this of Mormons because they practice fasting.

Re: new e3/e4

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:12 pm
by Tincup
progranulindefect wrote:Did Dr. Gundry have contact/patients who were 7th Day Adventists, as they live in Loma Linda, CA? If so, did he ever comment about them as they are a very long-lived group?

As director of Cardiothorasic surgery at Loma Linda, he saw all kinds of 7th Day Adventists. He has mentioned that many were "pastatarians" and hence had issues from that brand of vegetarianism.

From this:

Kiefer: "While you were there was that the predominant dietary recommendation that you were making to patients, or you just happened to be there and dealt with it accordingly?"

Gundry: "I’m not an Adventist, but I’m actually one of the few chairmen who is not an Adventist at that institution. I did adopt a primarily vegetarian diet while I was at Loma Linda, and that, in retrospect, was a large contribution to how I got to be big, fat, and hypertensive. When I took some of those principles and eliminated a lot of the problems of that diet I got my health back."

Kiefer: "So when you talk about eliminating some of the problems, was this less of focus on say starchy based vegetable products, and did you start transitioning into more animal-based products? Or for example did your concept of healthy fat moved from plant fats to butter for example?"

Gundry: "Yeah, the problem with, I think, that the American vegetarian diet and even American vegan diet is that it’s primarily what I call a pasta and grainatarian diet. Vegetarians and even vegans in other parts of the world who have pretty good health don’t follow those recommendations. One of the first things we did was eliminate all grains and all beans from our patients as clearly a food unfit for human consumption. Yes, so we started with that, and just as a side bar I did training in children’s heart surgery in London, England. At that time a diet called the egg diet was incredibly popular where you essentially ate 10 to 12 eggs a day. Long story short I actually had the lowest weight I’ve ever had in my adult life when I lived in London, England, doing the egg diet. So if you think I added a lot of eggs back into my diet, you’re correct."

And there is more in the transcript. Links to other Gundry interviews are in this post.

Re: new e3/e4

Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:49 pm
by progranulindefect
thanks, GeorgeN.

Re: new e3/e4

Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:33 pm
by ArcticWolf
Hi Mac--welcome to the forum.

I am a 3/4 like yourself and fairly new member as well, though I came to my knowledge of my APOE4 status because of cognitive issues I was having (memory problems, aphasia, brain fog) which began in my mid-30's (I'm now 48). After not getting much help from the medical community (even the "experts"), I decided to take the APOE gene test four years ago. Needless to say, I took the information pretty hard. I am currently in the process of evaluating changes to my lifestyle, which isn't easy as you've seen with all the somewhat nebulous and conflicting scientific information out there. I tend to be fairly skeptical of any one researcher or individual who gives definitive advise that must be followed. Given that the APOE gene is only one of 25,000 or so in your genome, the best path for you is probably more complicated than a quick one-size-fits-all answer.

That being said, there is a lot of great advice here on things that are key to healthy brain function for APOE4's and everyone--including exercise, more (and better) sleep, diet improvements and helpful supplements. I've mostly given up on fast food and sodas, and currently focusing on reducing processed foods and simple carbs while increasing my daily intake of complex carbs from vegetables and healthy fats. I honestly don't even see myself ever giving up meat, dairy and some bread/pasta in moderation. But I can move towards healthier alternatives like small portions of grass-fed beef and lamb, more poultry and whole grains.

It sounds like you already have a willingness to make some key changes. Whatever you do, make sure your path is sustainable and helps you live your live to its fullest.

Re: new e3/e4

Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2016 3:17 pm
by circular
I got the impression there is good data to show that maternal family history is a stronger risk factor than paternal family history (for AD), not that paternal family history doesn't carry risk. But overall, right, above, too many complexities to quantify and individual's risk.

Also, many who say that non-pharmaceutical approaches don't help are relying on studies where only one variable was tweaked at a time. Based primarily on Dr. Bredesen's approach, which attempts to "plug many holes in one's roof", many of us feel that carefully chosen environmental tweaks, when customized to one's own weak links and done together, provide synergistic protection. But yes, always need more studies.