PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby xactly » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:42 am

I am heterozygous for the PEMT rs7946. I started taking Country Life Phosphatidylcholine Complex. The first three days I felt great, seemed to be mentally alert, and slept well. The fourth day I had uncommon difficulty falling asleep. I tried searching for a connection between PC supplementation and sleep disruption and didn't come up with anything. If anyone else with this polymorphism has noticed a connection between PC supplementation and difficulty falling asleep, please let me know.

I have previously taken Citicholine (CDP choline), but didn't notice any particular improvement in cognitive function. I have also occasionally tried Alpha GPC, but I get a strange, spacey feeling in my head. I suspect I need to supplement for this pathway problem, but I'm not sure what form, dosage or schedule works best.

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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby SusanJ » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:46 am

PC will spare methyl groups because they are required to create PC from choline. So, my best guess is that you ended up with extra methyl groups and started pushing the SAMe path a bit too much. Try every other day, or a smaller dose. Always good to listen to your body.

And just because you are heterozygous for PEMT, you might not need extra supplementation. Do you have symptoms that suggest you should take PC?

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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby Plumster » Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:53 pm

And just because you are heterozygous for PEMT, you might not need extra supplementation. Do you have symptoms that suggest you should take PC?


What are the symptoms, Susan?

I am taking Alpha GPC 400 mg and am not noticing a difference.
e3/4 MTHFR C677T/A1298C COMT V158M++ COMT H62H++ MTRR A66G ++ HLA DR

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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby SusanJ » Wed Nov 21, 2018 5:26 pm

Personally, my GI and histamine symptoms improved with PC supplementation. PC is involved in bile production, and bile not only helps absorb fats, but it helps control bad bugs in the small intestine. Gall bladder problems run in my family on both sides, and with my methylation and PEMT issues, I can see why it was a problem for my parents.

And PC is a critical component of cell membranes, and the thought is strong membranes helps control histamine release. And part of this equation is that by supplying PC, you don't use up as many methyl groups leaving them for other work, like breaking down histamine.

PC also helps package triglycerides. Not enough and it can lead to fatty liver. Also important for nerve function, muscle movement and brain health (think cell membranes here).

I also learned from Lynch's work that estrogen stimulates PEMT to create choline, so premenopausal women can get away with a lower choline diet. Past menopause, we don't get that boost, so some form of choline supplementation is likely necessary (especially with PEMT variants), unless one eats enough choline.

I had to experiment - I tried choline (didn't seem to do much), alpha-GPC (didn't do much), citicoline (made me brain buzzy) and finally found that PC works best for me. I think it just depends where in the choline pathway you have blocks. I also take TMG, because I have a variant in CHDH, converting choline to TMG, and TMG definitely helped lower my homocysteine levels.

Check out this post to see how choline goes into different pathways: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2965&p=35519&hilit=rs9001#p35519

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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby xactly » Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:17 pm

SusanJ wrote:PC will spare methyl groups because they are required to create PC from choline. So, my best guess is that you ended up with extra methyl groups and started pushing the SAMe path a bit too much. Try every other day, or a smaller dose. Always good to listen to your body.

And just because you are heterozygous for PEMT, you might not need extra supplementation. Do you have symptoms that suggest you should take PC?


Extra methyl groups sounds like a likely explanation. Even though I'm heterozygous for this SNP, it concerns me, since PC plays so many important roles. I'll work on a dosing schedule that skips days and possibly also use a lower dose. Thanks!

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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby Rainbow » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:06 pm

Thanks for the info, everyone.
circular wrote:So I got an email this afternoon that Rhonda Patrick's new version of her genetic report is out. I downloaded it to get the additional genes. It seems I have another problem on my choline pathways

For the record, I have exactly the same SNPs:

PEMT rs7946(T;T)
FADS1 rs174548(G;G)
MTRR rs1801394(G;G)

Pass the liver!
4/4

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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby xactly » Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:11 pm

I asked Chris Masterjohn if he recommended supplementing for the PEMT SNP, and here is his response:

“I don't think this means you should supplement with choline. Rather, it means that you need similar amounts of choline as everyone else but if you don't meet them you are more likely to have problems in your liver.

With that said, see chrismasterjohnphd.com/methylation for choline suggestions.”

I’m reading through the information in the link.


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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby SusanJ » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:15 am

circular wrote:I wish I liked more choline rich foods so I could just eat a bunch of them.


Just realized that Lynch put a list of non-animal sources of choline in his book. Here you go.

Asparagus, beets, broccoli, brussels sprouts, cauliflower, flaxseed, green peas, lentils, mung beans, pinto beans, quinoa, shitake mushrooms and spinach.

Don't know how much each contains, and I know that some on that list will be high in lectins. Worth a try, though.

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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby circular » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:12 am

I just found this interesting article at BeyondMTHFR about Estrogen, Methylation, and Choline Deficiency that focuses on PEMT. I wasn't aware of this angle. Very interesting if true.
Summary of PEMT and Choline Deficiency:

In humans, choline is only made by the PEMT enzyme

Estrogen is required for the PEMT enzyme to activate and function normally

Men and postmenopausal women have an elevated risk of choline deficiency due to low estrogen levels.

The PEMT enzyme is commonly slowed down by polymorphisms, making it unresponsive to estrogen levels
74% of women have at least one copy of a slowed PEMT
Homozygous carriers of PEMT have much higher risk of choline deficiency
Men, postmenopausal women, and premenopausal women with PEMT SNPs need to increase choline intake in the diet to offset elevated risk of liver dysfunction

The take away here is that studies have recently shown that because of common genetic polymorphisms, choline deficiency is a widespread problem. Normally the hormone estrogen allows the body to make choline from scratch. However, genetic variation in the PEMT enzyme, estrogen levels and gender differences prevent most people from making adequate choline. Realistically then the only group in our population who is protected from choline deficiency are premenopausal females without a single copy of the slowed PEMT gene. Every single male, every single postmenopausal woman, and 74% of premenopausal woman all require daily intake of approx. 500 mg of choline to prevent fatty liver, organ damage, and the associated health problems.7 If the body is already depleted, then levels that simply prevent deficiency won’t be enough to replete the body. In these cases, higher daily doses of at least 1 gram or more are needed to replenish the tissues. Choline it seems must be absorbed from the diet in just about everyone except for the few young women who have a normal PEMT gene and can synthesize choline regardless of dietary intake.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.

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Re: PEMT RS7946(T,T) Fast Results After Phosphatidylcholine Supplemention

Postby circular » Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:09 pm

SusanJ wrote:
circular wrote:I wish I liked more choline rich foods so I could just eat a bunch of them.


Just realized that Lynch put a list of non-animal sources of choline in his book. Here you go.

Asparagus, beets, broccoli, brussels sprouts, cauliflower, flaxseed, green peas, lentils, mung beans, pinto beans, quinoa, shitake mushrooms and spinach.

Don't know how much each contains, and I know that some on that list will be high in lectins. Worth a try, though.

Thanks for this Susan! Maybe between my morning eggs, fish, meat and lots of veggies I'm covered. I suspect that based on years of earlier eating habits I would have become very depleted of choline. BeyondMTHFR, in the link above, says:
If the body is already depleted, then levels that simply prevent deficiency won’t be enough to replete the body. In these cases, higher daily doses of at least 1 gram or more are needed to replenish the tissues.

I don't know anything about Andrew Rostenberg, DC whose website that is.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.


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