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New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Newcomer introductions, personal anecdotes, caregiver issues, lab results, and n=1 experimentation.
KrikorKap
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Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby KrikorKap » Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:46 pm

Vitamin A - Carrot a day is perfect.

Vitamin D - A little bit of sun every day....perfect.

Carbon dating CAC .....ha ha.....I love that idea. Funny.

Krikor

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Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby giftsplash » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:37 pm

Russ,

If I can make one recommendation it would be to pay the $100 and get another NMR test. Since you stated that you did Resistant Starch.

I went on a 6 week Resistant starch protocol and recorded the highest LDL-P results of my life 2668. I stopped the RS and retook the NMR test a week later and my LDL-P dropped to 2333.
300 point drop in a week of no Resistant Starch!

See my post
https://www.apoe4.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=440

I can't say for sure the RS is the guilty party but based on my own experimentation I am leaning that way.

My bet is that you should be able to drop your LDL-P into the 1300 - 1500 range with the following over the counter supplements like I have over the 12 weeks:

See my post:
https://www.apoe4.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=186&p=1123#p1123

Niacin 500mg X 2 times a day, worked up to 1500mg X 2 times a day.

Sytrinol X 2 times a day

Policosanol at night ← I would leave this out, since I think it hurt by testosterone by limiting cholesterol production.

Glucomannan 1400mg X 2 times a day

Artichoke Leaves – 500 mg X 2 times a day

Tocotrienols 50mg X 2 times a day

Soy Protein with Soy milk about once a week. ← Definitely leave this out.

And obviously low fat (20% or less)

I would also add the following probiotics
L. reuteri.
This is hard to get in large dozes in a probiotic, the link below is the only product which provides 2 billion CFU's

http://www.drugstore.com/products/prod.asp?pid=523564&catid=183192&aid=338666&aparam=523564&kpid=523564


as well as
E. faecium
Which is also hard to get. I believe AOR makes one.

See a great study on probiotics and lipids.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/nure.12084/full

The probiotics alone should drop your LDL by 5 to 10%. Although it's hard to say the effect it will have on the LDL-P. But they usually correlate.
Last edited by giftsplash on Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby Sandraz » Mon Jun 23, 2014 9:55 pm

Hi Russ,

Just commenting on your glucose blood work

" In April tests, HbA1C = 5.6, Fasting Glucose = 93. Both a little high for my tastes, but don't appear terribly problematic?"

Actually, IMHO I do think those numbers are a problem because of APOE4. For starters, HBA1c going up to 5.7 is cut off to pre-diabetes, so you are almost there. And even though BS of 93 isn't bad compared to the rest of the population, 1/3 of general population is diabetic and up to a third are pre-diabetic so although that may be better than the population in general it is not optimal.

My understanding is bc we have more LDL particles floating around bc of poor clearance they can be oxidized more easily just because they are there longer. Plus see the quote below...APOE4 binds three times more easily to glucose molecules compared to E3's. That means those extra LDL's we have are oxidized even more quickly with higher blood sugars. That can mean LDL depositing in artery walls as plaques and the APOE 4 molecule cannot deliver the fats and cholesterol to the neurons which may be the start of the progression to AD. So it appears that keeping blood sugar levels as low as possible would undo some of the issues of being APOE4.

This does go along with observations of diabetics being more likely to have AD.

"ApoE-4 shows a three-fold greater AGE-binding activity than ApoE-3 explains that when there are more glucose molecules in the blood stream (diabetes and pre-diabetes) APOE4 binds 3 times more easily to glucose than APOE3 which then makes that glycated APOE4 molecule inactive so that even less nutrients get into the brain! So having high blood sugars may be the worst thing we could have happening to progress to AD."

Here is link to that article
http://people.csail.mit.edu/seneff/EJIM_PUBLISHED.pdf

Your numbers are pretty much what mine were this past February but I haven't had the guts to find out if my arteries have plaque build up started. By going lower carb my fasting BS is now 70, when it was mid 90's. And my HBa1c was 5.6 -don't know what it is now, but will know next month. So, IMHO, keeping BS low is possibly ONE of the most important things APOE4's can do to ward off both AD and CVD. The hard part is keeping LDLp lowish while doing it. I think that is where Julie and Gilgamesh and others have had great success with calorie restriction. Probably one way exercise helps too, bc that increases insulin sensitivity which keeps BS low.

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Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby Gilgamesh » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:03 am

Russ wrote:G, Will read the paper on CR with interest. Part of the trouble I still feel caught in is the merits of markers alone. Clear that CR improves markers (although maybe not all uniquely), but how about outcomes?


Yup, that's a weak point in the CR data! (By the way, there are better, more up-to-date papers. That one just had an easy to read table.) In humans, we have short-term intervention data, as with other lifestyle changes, and long-term epidemiological data, as with (some) other lifestyle changes, but no long- or even longish-term intervention studies. But the epidemiological data is, to my mind, impressive (like the Okinawans), and then there's the massive lab animal data.

But, for me, it's hard to make the case that a diet (CR) that makes my genetically high blood pressure go down by over 25% -- to name just one of many changes -- isn't going to be a very good thing. (And reading through the posts here -- aren't we making decisions that are ninety-something percent based on biomarkers?)

But it sure would be great to discover a village that, in 1880 or so, split itself into a CR group and a control group!

---

Agree strongly with Sandra Z (every point made). Another point about exercise: there's some cool new research showing that simply walking for fifteen minutes after each meal (timing varies: maybe not right after -- though depends on when you started eating -- but shortly after) does wonders for blood glucose -- during and right after the walking, but also long term.

GB

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Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby Julie G » Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:32 am

Agree strongly with Sandra Z (every point made).


Me too! You've framed my perspective exactly, Sandra.

Playing Devil's advocate; because it's the only way to find the truth... How does Seneff's theory apply to the 4/4 natives in Papau New Guinea, eating a relatively high carb diet- yet remaining disease free? Why does one diet: high MUFA/LC work for westernized 4/4s; yet LFHC work for that population?

G, really interesting about walking after meals; makes sense- burn the carbs before they glycate.

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Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby Sandraz » Tue Jun 24, 2014 8:42 am

I have wondered that too, Julie. I am thinking a couple of things. Probably the primitive cultures didn't routinely overeat on calories, maybe? And then I am thinking they get more exercise, physical movement as a part of their lifestyle which would keep BS low or other things. And I bet they went hungry at times...sort of like calorie restriction.

I also wonder if maybe the SAD diet's affect on a body's physiology/metabolism or something....means that after a certain point it is damaged. So that, for example, I can fix my pre-diabetes but dropping carbs, but if I go back to eating them, I immediately have problems again. Part of the aging process maybe, genes being turned on by wrong diet, burning out the islet cells in the pancreas,...the possibilities are endless. And probably lots of things that genetics research and research will eventually show.

So it is like we have to do extreme things, to fix the damage. For example, me cutting carbs a little isn't enough. It's got to be waaay down. So if we can fix things by adjusting macronutrient ratios, adding in supplements (bc food isn't what it used to be thanks to processing &agribusiness), practicing CR, and possible using a prescription drug when appropriate, MAYBE we can counter our cultures way of eating and lifestyle. That is why I don't have a problem with playing around with those factors, even if no native has ever eaten eat this way.

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Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby Julie G » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:46 am

Interesting Sandra; I surmised many of the SAME points to Russ in an email. Maybe we can add, chronic stress from a Westernized lifestyle, EMF exposure, pollutants/toxins to your list? We may have to eat/live pristinely to make up for past and continuing damage due to factors outside of our control :idea:

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Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby Sandraz » Tue Jun 24, 2014 12:59 pm

Isn't that the truth. And especially for us E4's. :?
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Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby SpunkyPup » Tue Jun 24, 2014 1:20 pm

sorry to hear your results Russ..

what is really damaging is that higher BG readings in the presence of high saturated fat for E4's really sets us up for oxidized ldl which forms the plaque occlusions in the arteries and gives one a high over 100 CAC I believe Kirkopat is correct or close to the number.

So continue on with the PS hopefully it will lower BG as it has done in others over time. It is possible you have some genetic tendencies to be more sensitive to sat fat than other E4's or in the past had eaten too many carbs to spike your BG causing a disturbed metabolism.

Fish oil does oxidize quickly and particle clearance is slower in E4 and combine that with high BG and we all know it is a problem.

What is likely happening is an inflammation process is underway and is difficult to stop. Homo-cysteine ideally should be around 6 and is one form of inflammation and is corrected by fine tuning ones methylation cycle.
you should also get your ApO-A and -B tested ideal ratio .3 and your Lp(a) which maybe involved in the plaque patching.

maybe ask your doc about metformin as it has multiple benefits to lower BG etc. When things have gone this far, I'm no dr but seen problems like this it takes time and some medical intervention to bring markers to a lower level to help prevent an unfortunate even happening sometime in the future. If you look at Jimmy Moore he has had high particle # for some time now but as Dr Dayspring told him he will be ok as long as he keeps his inflammatory markers down all of them.

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Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby Russ » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:54 pm

Sandraz, Julie, G - Thanks for your comments on glucose. Really makes sense. Having largely ignored this until now, as Julie suggested offline, this will become a legitimate marker I can manage to.
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