Got my oxidized LDL results

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RichardS
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Re: Got my oxidized LDL results

Postby RichardS » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:21 pm

I just use whatever green olives I can find in the store.

I base my recipe on Cook's Illustrated http://www.food.com/recipe/cooks-illust ... mus-380146

I use pureed olives instead of chickpeas but add the water last and add it as needed to keep it from getting too thin.

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Re: Got my oxidized LDL results

Postby GenePoole0304 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:46 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TBARS

know someone who took the test while on a high sat fat diet and got very bad results.
the test has been known to give erroneous results at times and is expensive.

look up polypenol content of olives, eat 6-12/day we like the WholeFoods pimento stuffed green ones but here in FL they seem to have changed to an olive oil less vinegary variety. then use high oelic safflower oil which is monosaturated.

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RichardS
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Re: Got my oxidized LDL results

Postby RichardS » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:47 pm

I ran across this human randomized trial while looking into Lp(a). I have read a number of references to the correlation between oxLDL and Lp(a). Here is some real data showing a very strong correlation.
http://atvb.ahajournals.org/content/24/3/498.long
The baseline plasma OxLDL-EO6 correlated with the plasma Lp(a) concentration (r=0.94, P<0.001) (Figure I, available online at http://atvb.ahajournals.org). There were also strong correlations between the plasma OxLDL-EO6 and Lp(a) on the low-fat, low-vegetable diet (r=0.97, P<0.001) and on the low-fat, high-vegetable diet (r=0.96, P<0.001). The relative changes of plasma OxLDL-EO6 and plasma Lp(a) correlated as well (r=0.65, P<0.001; the change from the baseline to the low-fat, low-vegetable diet) (r=0.38; P<0.05; the change from the baseline to the low-fat, high-vegetable diet). The changes of plasma OxLDL-EO6 and plasma Lp(a) did not correlate with the changes of plasma antioxidants.


The one strange part about this is that OxLDL was
because we expressed the oxidized phospholipids detected per apoB-100 particle, this measurement is independent of LDL values. However, because the absolute LDL levels were only minimally affected in response to the low-fat diets (Figure 2), the absolute number of apoB-100 particles did not change; thus, there was a net increase in the total content of oxidized phospholipid associated with apoB


So is it really necessary to test for oxLDL if there is a nearly 1:1 correlation with Lp(a)? It seems quite redundant. Lp(a) appears to be a near perfect marker for the percentage of oxidized LDL in the apoB-100 particle. I wonder if that explains why the elevated risk due to Lp(a) has been shown to disappear when LDL-C is <130 --- with less LDL, there would be an overall lower burden of oxidized LDL given the same Lp(a) level.

Am I making any sense? If so, and if it is easier to lower LDL than Lp(a), that would confirm my goal of working on LDL (since changing fat content seems to affect LDL inversely to Lp(a) putting me between a rock and a hard place).

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Julie G
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Re: Got my oxidized LDL results

Postby Julie G » Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:59 pm

The mixed message comes into play with the WORSENED oxLDL and Lp(a) on a lowfat diet :?

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Re: Got my oxidized LDL results

Postby Tincup » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:14 am

I think this is the reason Dr. Gundry is a fan of UNFILTERED EVOO - the extra polys...
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Re: Got my oxidized LDL results

Postby Silverlining » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:52 am

Interesting theory; hard to test it in our community without oxldl, but just looking at LDL-C and Lp(a), I have access to two studies for Lp(a), mine and my sister's; neither of us have tested oxldl. My sister (3/4) had Lp(a) of 37 mg/dl, with LDL-C of 148. I'm a 4/4 and Lp(a) measured at 11mg/dl and LDL-C at 136. At the time of these tests I can state that generally she ate a higher carb, lower fat diet than I did. I exercise, she doesn't. She adopted a diet of higher fat (more saturated than unsaturated fats), lower carb after these numbers and retested 6 months later with much higher LDL-C (197) and her Apo-B rose to 125 from 116 (they did not test Lp(a) again). That freaked her out and she went on a third diet back to lower fat, but this time lowered her carbs, added beans and oatmeal and a basic cholesterol panel showed LDL-C at 126.

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Re: Got my oxidized LDL results

Postby marthaNH » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:19 am

I haven't been tested yet for Lp(a), but thank you for sharing your sister's numbers. I'm also 3/4 and this is very similar to what I experienced regarding diet, saturated fat, and LDL. That includes some recent success, and I'm hoping to take it a little farther in that direction.

I wonder how long it will take before the newspapers/websites start pointing fingers at the authorities who misled an unfortunate 30% or so of the population into believing that saturated fat was harmless for all but a very few. (And no, the demonization of well-meaning people is not helpful. But many people spreading today's new truth will be blamed.)

I know I did some damage to myself by jumping on that bandwagon, but luckily I found out the story was more complicated little more than a year into it. People who don't want to believe it will find plenty of comfort, as I did, from paleo web sites swearing up and down that saturated fat is wonderful and LDL doesn't really matter because xyz. There will also be many authoritative voices stating that you can't do anything about preventing Alzheimer's and there's no point in getting genetic testing and freaking yourself out. Primary care physicians will continue to provide one-size-fits-all advice while various online medical sites tell you not to do ANYTHING in terms of diet or exercise without checking with your PCP/GP, who has ALSO just gotten the "saturated fat is fine" message.

I shouldn't rant, but it is all rather depressing. My own personal theory about the ridiculous state of nutrition knowledge is that it still really doesn't get much respect from physicians and medical authorities. It has been women's work for such a long time. Combine that with an insistence on simple, standardized answers, and no wonder we have a mess on our hands. I suppose things are getting better.

I hope I am lucky enough to find a reasonable way forward for myself, and I appreciate the efforts of people here to figure it out. I'm tempted to try to proselytize myself, but who would listen to me? I teach art history! Even the president makes fun of us! And who is going to publish alternatives at this point to the tidal wave of butter-is-great pop nutrition articles? It will be years before the debunking even begins. OK. I'll shut up.

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Postby Stavia » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:51 am

Martha, well said. I learned nothing about nutrition in medical school and am horrified at finding out, now that my eyes are open, what a jungle it is our there with self-appointed messiahs and fervent followers proselytising opposing theories.

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Re: Got my oxidized LDL results

Postby Julie G » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:32 pm

Rant away, Martha. This is a good place for it ;)
I wonder how long it will take before the newspapers/websites start pointing fingers at the authorities who misled an unfortunate 30% or so of the population into believing that saturated fat was harmless for all but a very few. (And no, the demonization of well-meaning people is not helpful. But many people spreading today's new truth will be blamed.)

This concern has been shared on other recent threads. The silver lining (if there is one) is that MANY "experts" are saying SFA won't raise cholesterol for 70% of the population. My fervent hope is that these same experts will begin looking at the other 30% (many of whom carry the APOE ε4 allele) and work with us to figure out what DOES work. The change in national policy may be inadvertently shining a light on our dilemma.

People who don't want to believe it will find plenty of comfort, as I did, from paleo web sites swearing up and down that saturated fat is wonderful and LDL doesn't really matter because xyz.

I understand where you're going with this thought and largely agree. I do, however, think that we have enough peer reviewed science to suggest that LDL-P or apoB both trump LDL-C in terms of risk assessment. Many people (with varying degrees of MetS) find false comfort in low LDL-C only to be shocked to learn their true LDL-P or apoB number via advanced testing.

Since becoming more of an educated health consumer re. lipid testing, I find myself squarely in the middle of mainstream and alternative advice. IMHO (I could be 100% wrong) I think it's a mistake to think LDL-P doesn't matter and we should just focus on particle size. I also think it's a mistake to suggest the opposite; that small particle size, low HDL/high TGs are OK as long as LDL-C/P is low. At this point, I'm terrified enough to heed everyone's advice :? I want low LDL-P/apoB, low unoxidized LDL, low Lp(a), Pattern A: large and fluffy particles, with high HDL-C/P and low TGs. That being said, I think low glucose and insulin markers trump EVERYTHING followed closely by low inflammation markers.

Back to Richard's dilemma, I think your plan is wise. You've apparently tried high SFA and yielded poor results with both LDL-P and Lp(a), why not test your theory? I might check advanced lipids often to be sure you're moving in the right direction- an expensive nuisance...but safer. The idea that Lp(a) may be strongly correlated with oxLDL is intriguing. I recently tested Lp(a) for the first time and it was 8mg/dl. I tested on the same day as I tested for oxLDL. My results strengthen that hypothesis.

The idea that Lp(a) is tied to LDL-C/LDL-P/apoB (any or all) is interesting. My LDL-C has been crazy high (130-150) since eating high MUFA, but my LDL-P and apoB have been relatively decent. I tend to show discordancy in the opposite direction of most. That may fit in with your theory somehow... My understanding, however, is that Lp(a) is largely genetic. That makes me wonder is oxLDL may be the same?

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Re: Got my oxidized LDL results

Postby marthaNH » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:21 pm

Julie, I agree with you on just about all of this. My gripe is with the ones who don't believe anything at all matters as long as their triglycerides and HDL look good. And yeah, I want that, too. I laughed at your wanting to take everybody's advice, I get that, too. And I share the desire to get the right diet nailed down, but it doesn't seem to be in the nature of diets to submit to being nailed down.


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