NMR Data Sample

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MarkES
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NMR Data Sample

Postby MarkES » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:16 pm

Here's a sample of NMR data provided by E4's from this forum and other web sites, summarized together in a table for comparison. Maybe something like this and possibly other biomarkers would be a good candidate for the wiki.

EDIT (03/20/14): this data is now being maintained on the Biomarkers wiki page

Code: Select all

#  LDL-P LPIR  TC HDL LDL  TG TC/H TG/H APOE NOTES
01   717  30  133  46  76  56  2.9  1.2  4/4 James vegan longecity.org apoe4-vegan-experiment
02   923  44  119  41  65  63  2.9  1.5  4/4 James vegan longecity.org apoe4-vegan-experiment #2
03  1012   3  228  92 130  34  2.5  0.4  3/4 anonymous1 LC
04  1099      137  46  82  89  3.0  1.9  3/4 Philly apoe4.info f=5&t=51
05  1117   5  251  92 150  47  2.7  0.5  4/4 Julie LC apoe4.info f=5&t=40
06  1147   6  199  82 116  61  2.4  0.7  3/4 SusanJ 23andme.com
07  1281  46  163  43  91 143  3.8  3.4  3/4 giftsplash apoe4.info f=5&t=186 12/10/13
08  1434  13  231  66 149  80  3.5  1.2  4/4 Silverlining apoe4.info f=5&t=116
09  1437   3  257  72 176  46  3.6  0.6  3/4 anonymous1 LC
10  1595  51  209  52 147  51  4.0  1.0  3/4 Chris fivediets.com 08/08/13 pre-calcium scan
11  1645  40  188  41 127 101  4.6  2.4  3/4 giftsplash apoe4.info f=5&t=186 10/24/13
12  1695  46  224  50 162  58  4.5  1.2  3/4 Chris fivediets.com 09/27/13 baseline (SAD)

Code: Select all

#  LDL-P LPIR  TC HDL LDL  TG TC/H TG/H APOE   NOTES
13  1997  15  287  66 212  45  4.4  0.7  4/4 Skibike apoe4.info
14  2264  44  218  42 169  36  5.2  0.9  3/4 Chris fivediets.com 04/12/13 orig (80% paleo)
15  2321  45  188  41 127 101  4.6  2.4  3/4 giftsplash apoe4.info f=5&t=186 09/06/13
16  2414  46  272  40 220  59  6.8  1.5  3/4 Chris fivediets.com 10/19/13 paleo HFLC
17  2528  17  343  79 253  55  4.3  0.7  3/4 Michael apoe4.info f=6&t=15

Some observations:
  1. only one LDL-P <1000 (albeit a couple pretty close)
  2. may not be possible to achieve LDL-P <1000 with LDL-C >~130
  3. very low LDL-C <~80 likely means LDL-P <1000
  4. TC/H<3 appears fairly predictive of lower LDL-P, although TC/H as low as 2.4 was not LDL-P <1000
  5. TG/H does not seem predictive of lower LDL-P
  6. interesting to compare LDL-C ~150 for #5,8,10. #5 and 10 have similar TG ~50 but LDL-P differs ~500. #10 LPIR much worse.

Would like to fill in the blanks for some of the missing LPIR.

Has anyone seen any other LDL-P<1000? Just one vegan example I've seen so far. I haven't seen any LDL-P<1000 reported in the Paleo communities, independent of ApoE status. (EDIT 03/26/14: Robb Wolf reports LDL-P 895 after increasing carbs, minimized added fats, introducing potato starch [23:45] https://soundcloud.com/body-io-fm/01-robbwolf-final)

Thanks,
Mark

EDIT (12/09/13): added SusanJ name and LPIR.
EDIT (12/29/13): added Michael and giftsplash, reversed order so #1 is lowest LDL-P (Susan changed from #8 to #5), broke table into two parts to see all data at once without a scroll bar
EDIT (01/05/14): added James 2nd test
EDIT (03/20/14): this data is now being maintained on the Biomarkers wiki page
EDIT (03/26/14): Robb Wolf update
Last edited by MarkES on Wed Mar 26, 2014 6:01 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Julie G
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Re: NMR Data Sample

Postby Julie G » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:04 pm

Nice work, Mark. Great minds think alike; :D I've been doing some serious comparison charting as well. I very much appreciate your compilation. FWIW, my LDL-C prior to my current diet was always in the low 80s...so it's certainly doable for us- as James and G have also proven.

I'm far from certain that getting my LDL-P below 1,000 is optimal, however, if it means driving up small LDL particles and IR- both of which are clearly implicated in CVD and AD. Knowing that our ApoE carries and clears cholesterol less efficiently, I'm still toying with the idea that we may need more LDL and HDL to achieve the same goals as E2s and E3s.

This feels like a balancing act to me; keeping our hearts and brains healthy. We're on the forefront of figuring it out for E4s. I GREATLY appreciate your input. Amazing contribution.

Did you see Michael/White Knight's NMR?

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Re: NMR Data Sample

Postby SusanJ » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:33 pm

Hey Mark, I'm #8 and my last LPIR score was 6...

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Re: NMR Data Sample

Postby MarkES » Mon Dec 09, 2013 6:59 am

Juliegee wrote:I'm far from certain that getting my LDL-P below 1,000 is optimal, however, if it means driving up small LDL particles and IR- both of which are clearly implicated in CVD and AD.

I believe the evidence also shows that particle size only matters to the degree it aligns with LDL-P. i.e. High LDL-P with large particles is bad (e.g. familial hypercholesterolemia folks), low LDL-P with small particles is good. Low LP-IR, agreed.

Juliegee wrote:Did you see Michael/White Knight's NMR?

I haven't. I collected just those I found in this Heart Disease category. Do you have pointers to others?
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Re: NMR Data Sample

Postby Michael » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:28 pm

Mine can be found here: https://www.apoe4.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15&start=10#p499

Also, on the 10/17/2013 NMR my LP-IR Score was 17.

I discussed diet issues, etc. a few posts before here: https://www.apoe4.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=15&start=10#p380. I'm a 3/4.

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Re: NMR Data Sample

Postby Gilgamesh » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:16 pm

MarkES wrote:Maybe something like this and possibly other biomarkers would be a good candidate for the wiki.


Welcome, Mark!

I just came back to the US after a nearly 11-hour nonstop from Scandinavia last night. Phew. My bookmark folder, "apoe4.info - respond!", has tons of posts and a few PMs I will get to in the next week, I hope, but I saw this and had to jump in and say:

Brilliant idea! In fact, we could put all kinds of biomarkers on the wiki: easy to update, sort, etc. I don't really know much about WikiMedia's markup language but it's generally easy to look under the hood of some other existing page (at Wikipedia, for ex.) and see how any particular effect was produced. Ex: many Wikipedia pages -- those on population numbers, etc. -- have tables that can be sorted by country name, population, and so on, by clicking on a thingie at the top of a column. "How do I make that thingie appear on the apoe4.info wiki?" Simple (sort of). Just click the "Edit" tab and look at the code. Use it as a template.

Easier ex.:

"How did G make some of the text green at

https://www.apoe4.info/wiki/index.php?title ... ity_portal

??" Well, click "Edit", and take a look! Copy and paste the code (don't worry about how it works!) into the page you're working on, then change the text to what you want. Just a simple ex. Tables are a bit more complicated of course.

OK, off to load up on vegetables at WholeFoods. (My parents bought me a separate refrigerator as an early Christmas present.) Very sweet -- and, well, much needed. :)

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Re: NMR Data Sample

Postby Julie G » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:22 pm

Lilly, 4/4, may have also had an NMR or two. Hopefully she'll weigh in. And Krikor, 3/4, too. Waves at Michael!

Mark, I hear you on the NMR. You suggest (most agree!) that it's the LDL-P that matters- no matter what the composition...just keep it below 1,000. From my limited observation, I'm noticing that in order for E4s to achieve that goal it seems like we need to drive up small LDL-P and LPIR (to an extent). I'm wondering how wise that is...given how prone we are to oxidative stress. More small LDL-P+oxidative stress might equal trouble for E4s. After all, it's ultimately the small oxidized LDL particles that become artherogenic.

Another idea..given the relative inefficiency of apoE4 (compared to E2 and E3,) could a case be made for E4s needing slightly more LDL to get the job done? I'm assuming our brains have the same metabolic needs, just a poorer delivery system. Interestingly, researchers have recently found that our HDL is equally inefficient and are suggesting (for that same reason) that E4s may need more. I'll dig up that research if you're interested.

One final thought; the makers of the NMR suggest that for "low-risk" patients an ideal LDL-P score would be below 1,600. I KNOW Dayspring (et al) have decided differently- that we ALL need to keep LDL-P below 1.000. I'm totally playing devil's advocate here, questioning CW, and wondering if Mother Nature might know what she's doing with re. to E4s :idea:

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Re: NMR Data Sample

Postby Ski » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:48 pm

Julie
Where did you see that recommendation from the makers of the NMR? Then why does their test indicate that 1600 is High?


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Julie G
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Re: NMR Data Sample

Postby Julie G » Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:58 pm

http://www.liposcience.com/sites/defaul ... Report.pdf

Found right below the red/green bars. This is data meant for physicians on interpreting results. Per the test maker, there are different goals for different risk categories.

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Re: NMR Data Sample

Postby Ski » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:03 pm

Thanks.....nice link explaining things. Should maybe Sticky it in a separate thread.


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