Our 3rd annual meet-up will piggyback on the LowCarb USA conference in San Diego, CA, August 3-6.

New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Newcomer introductions, personal anecdotes, caregiver issues, lab results, and n=1 experimentation.
GeorgeN
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 1443
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:57 pm
Location: Front Range, CO

Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby GeorgeN » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:48 pm

Ski, my doc is a LC guy. He's commented that it is usual to see high LDL-P numbers with people on a LCHF diet. His metrics include small LDL-P<50% of LDL-P, and low TG. Dr. Rocky is a 3/3 so may not be applicable to 4's. Peter Attia commented on Rocky's post that all the data on interpreting these metrics are from people on a SAD diet. So who knows what they mean with different inputs. I'm taking a cautious approach. I'm going to assume having LDL-P > 1000 is not a good plan for me. Also, my LDL and TG seem to be correlated, as in they go up and down together. I'm pretty sure high TG is not a good idea. It is also interesting that my TG (and LDL) increase when I fast. I also assume that fasting is not atherogenic, but I wouldn't guarantee it. My plan is to continue to change inputs and retest.
George
E3,E4

User avatar
Ski
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 549
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:18 pm

Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby Ski » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:27 pm

George - Thats just it, so many different bars set by different people, that's its really difficult to come to any consensus really. I'm in your same boat with risks and trying to keep my numbers low too, as for now, that seems to be the one to control.

My new doc(GP) is a BIG Paleo guy and even does talks on cholesterol as well as radio shows. But you know what, when it comes down to the nitty gritty, he admits, we just dont know and questions a lot of the different inflammation tests and their interpretations.

User avatar
Russ
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 477
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 10:33 am

Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby Russ » Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:18 pm

Ski, I fully understand. I think the difference in my view may be that I think we have so many assumptions that there is danger in both directions - ie, in reality, either decision is gutsy. Whereas I am indeed still in no drug mode for now, that could change. Still aim to understand both the science and my own data to discern underlying causes enough to develop testable hypotheses. For now, I don't know anything better than guided self-experimentation.
Russ
E3/4
Eat whole, real, flavorful food - fresh and in season... and mix it up once in a while.

Online
User avatar
Juliegee
Mod
Mod
Posts: 5927
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:36 pm

Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby Juliegee » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:04 pm

Hey Russ, that's actually great news re. your IGF-1 level. Although it's a bit of a controversial biomarker, it seems to be moving in the right direction. Hardcore longevity peeps say the lower, the better.

I'm beyond ready for your appt. I'm sure you are too. I'm sending good energy that it's SOON so that you'll have a clearer path moving forward.

Ski, I could be wrong, but I thought Dr. Grundy was claiming to get regression with his protocol. Here's an excellent synopsis of his program, entitled Tips for Preventing Heart Attacks and REVERSING Coronary Artery Disease: http://www.heartsmartimt.com/Take%20Heart.pdf Also, poke around HeartLifeTalk.com when you get a chance. There is a thread entitled "Regression- How I did it" Dr. Rocky Patel is far from the only example who's done so with a keto diet. Conversely, on that same site, a member today reveals he suffered an MI with an LDL of 59. Shockingly, his docs have since put him on a statin. His current LDL is 39 :? The evidence isn't as clear as you might think.

To clarify, I'm certainly not encouraging anyone to purposefully maintain any biomarker out-of-range. I'm just saying that CAD is much more complex than simply lowering LDL.

Welcomeaboard
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 915
Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:28 pm

Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby Welcomeaboard » Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:23 pm

Thanks for sharing your test results Russ, I am waiting to hear what Dr. Gundry says. On the other hand I have several relatives on my father's side that died from heart attacks in their late 50's or early 60's and others that had heart attacks as in plural for some individuals but did not die. Some were fat and some were thin and all were males. I will be 55 shortly and decided to go on simvastatin as it states I have the typical odds of myopathy on it versus increased for others per 23andme reports. I also chose that statin intervention, as there is a gene that was tied to a study on extreme longevity that caused cancer, osteoporosis and heart attacks and I have that gene snp and have already had cancer and diagnosed with osteopenia and have slight calcification of arteries on ct scans in 2010,thru 2012 give or take a year. I have no idea what slight means or if they have improved or got worse, but I have increased Vitamin D3 intake and added k2 for the last two years so that may have helped.

User avatar
LanceS
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:37 am

Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby LanceS » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:48 am

I enjoyed reading this discussion. Thanks all!

User avatar
Ski
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 549
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:18 pm

Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby Ski » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:33 am

Julie - Im certainly not that naive to think its about lowering LDL. Im well beyond that and could care less about LDL-C. With regards to statin use, the issue with most people and the anti-statin rant is because they dont believe in the LDL lowering theory. And yes that's correct but what they fail to realize more importantly, is its ability to lower LDL-P. And in a lot of cases with good docs, this is why its prescribed.....not because they want to lower LDL-C. There are many that are discordant and can drop LDL-C but not LDL-P, including myself and the one thing that works at dropping that LDL-P number are things like Zetia and or statins. Im also well aware of how multi factorial CVD is and thats why Ive posted studies of people with perfect lipid results and yet still have CVD.

My point is with regards to the ONE person.....thats one person with a high LDL-P that achieved regression, not people that achieved regression with normal or slightly elevated lipid values. Im sure theres probably more folks but whenever this theory is mentioned on whether high LDL-P matters, invariably Rocky Patel's story is mentioned, not some study on a group with high LDL-P.

And with regards to heartlifetalk, Ive seen those before and as you can tell the stories are few and far between ....with 1 story claiming an increase on a HFLC diet(although could be completely unrelated) another also an increase in CAC score on Paleo until they added Zetia and then got regression. Im not pro any approach and its up to each individual to determine what works for them. If I could handle it, and my markers were good, Id be eating HFLC myself but as many successes there are with one approach, there's also failures. I personally know someone that was eating Paleo for some time and in the middle of a mountain bike race, suffered a heart attack and died at the age of 50. But that doesn't mean Im anti HFLC, it simply proves what works for one, doesn't necessarily work for another.

User avatar
Ski
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 549
Joined: Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:18 pm

Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby Ski » Sat Aug 30, 2014 7:56 am

Russ wrote:Ski, I fully understand. For now, I don't know anything better than guided self-experimentation.

And that my friend I believe is the best and only approach one should take due to so many different personal variables at play.

Online
User avatar
Juliegee
Mod
Mod
Posts: 5927
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:36 pm

Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby Juliegee » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:29 am

Hey Ski, thanks for that clarification. I didn't realize you were focusing specifically on LDL-P. I have no idea what LDL-P Dr. Grundy's patients maintain while achieving regression. I would guess (hope) his goal would be to get it in range. Same with the multiple examples at HLT of folks achieving regression on LC. Many share CAC/CIMT scores, but not LDL-P in that thread.

User avatar
LanceS
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:37 am

Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P

Postby LanceS » Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:59 pm

GeorgeN wrote:Ski,

As there are examples of CIMT reversal with high lipid scores http://azsunfm.blogspot.com/2012/09/font-definitions-font-face-font-family.html I'd be OK with that IF my inflammation and CIMT/CAC scores were all low. I'd just keep an eye on the CIMT or CAC score, since these are direct measures, not correlations. In my case, knowing I've got a suboptimal CIMT result and one inflammation score - LP-Pla2 as somewhat elevated, I'm not willing to make that choice. I'm also not done experimenting to see how I can move things via input.


Was browsing on my behalf, found Dr. Rocky (Patel) had a comment on facebook that with elevated LP-PLA2 you might have some infection that could be periodontal disease. Recommended to someone on facebook seeing dentist / periodontist. Said pocket sizes greater than 3mm could be a sign you have a problem, but that this was consistent with CRP being fine. Also recommended a test called MyPeriopath by OralDNA labs.

Also there was discussion about Gundry telling a patient, that LP-PLA2 being related to too much animal (fish included) protein. I can't remember if you are a carb nighter / work out warrior. But he recommended a Life Time vegetable protein as if your LP-PLA2 coming down it might be helped by elimination of whey protein, which it seems under some circumstances he doesn't like. From what I recall whey was in his book as ok, so I don't know if the problem with it is that I've heard some whey is tainted by inclusion of casein protein or if it is somehow contributing to LP-PLA2 under animal protein. Anyway, no idea but I was trying to use a whey protein that seemed to be high quality whey only... might suck it up and go vege protein and see how that works for me. Eat alot of whey... its my goto for when I don't eat much. With ULC and carb cycling I feel like my ULC days get too low too often.

You're probably 10 steps ahead of me as usual, but just trying to be helpful.


Return to “Our Stories”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests