Alternating polyphenol supplements rather than combining

[apod]

I reached out to Bill from the Longevinex resveratrol product and asked about his opinion on combining Longevinex with curcumin or other polyphenol supplements in pursuit of additional anti-inflammatory / metabolic health benefits. He recommended keeping to a relatively tame 350mg total polyphenol supplement load, and alternating these supplements rather than combining to avoid possible side effects of anxiety, flu-like symptoms, anemia, etc.

This seems like useful advice for those of us that are quick to read into the benefits of polyphenol supplements without considering the "too much of a good thing" risks.

[slacker]

for those of us still crawling out of the ocean on our fins, what supplements other than curcumin and resveratrol are considered polyphenols? I am looking at my versions of these supplements: the curcumin product label doesn't mention polyphenols at all, and the resveratrol product label says nothing about amount in trans-resveratrol but does in the red wine grape and grape extract components. Is is possible that these supplements are providing benefit above and beyond polyphenol content?

Inquiring minds would like to know...

[apod]

for those of us still crawling out of the ocean on our fins, what supplements other than curcumin and resveratrol are considered polyphenols? I am looking at my versions of these supplements: the curcumin product label doesn't mention polyphenols at all, and the resveratrol product label says nothing about amount in trans-resveratrol but does in the red wine grape and grape extract components. Is is possible that these supplements are providing benefit above and beyond polyphenol content?

Inquiring minds would like to know...

Other popular polyphenol supplements might include green tea extract, ECGC, grape seed extract, grape skin, pycogenol, OPCs, pterostilbene, red wine extract, pomegranate extract, cranberry extract, cinnamon extract, olive extract, blueberry extract, tart cherry extract, quercetin, citrus bioflavonoids, artichoke extract, rosemary extract, cacao extract, coffee fruit extract, sulforaphane, etc. There's a ton of them.

I thought this was a good bulletproof radio talk on polyphenols:
https://blog.bulletproof.com/barry-sear ... ation-300/

Or Masterjohn's talk on Beneficial Toxins: Phytochemicals, Hormesis, and Nrf2:


Barry Sears recommends a pretty high intake (which might be harmful in some cases?) I found it interesting that Dave mentioned somewhere along the talk that it might make sense to supplement polyphenols 3 or 4 days out of the week, then take days off. There was a recent pubmed article that actually showed worsened endogenous antioxidant defenses after chronic consumption of a repeated hormetic compound rich fruit / veg extract blend. If I recall, this article recommended a larger diversity of fruits & veg.

[Fiver]

Awesome polyphenol info.

Here is a 60 sec version:

Phenols are molecules with a benzene ring and one or more -OH groups. The rings tend to absorb UV light and can make good "sunscreens". The -OH groups can be oxidized - oxygen, heat, and light tend to turn them into =O groups. The reaction can be catalyzed by enymes called phenol oxidases. This is why apple slices turn brown. The new "arctic apple" is engineered without oxidase enzymes and tends not to brown.

Plants are particularly good at making phenolics by a pathway we don't have.

Small phenolics (phenolic acids) are made first: coumaric acid, ferulic acid, etc. they are small, soluble, and very common. There ate dozens. Some are in spices, teas, coffee, etc.

Medium sized phenolics serve as flower petal colors (roses are red, violets are blue, because phenolics) and building blocks for larger phenolics. Resveratrol is medium in size and just happens to have a structure that does interesting things (looks like estrogen to the body, for example). Some others bind to other molecules. The "tannins" bind to everything, including proteins. They are used in the "tanning process" to make leather because with heat the bind to hide proteins and prevent decay. Tannins also can bind to salivary and digestive enzymes. Those in coffee are bitter for this reason - they are precipitating your salivary enzymes down the back of your throat. (Don't like that? Add creamer, which is sacrificial protein). Plant tannins often benefIt plants by detering grazers - they taste bad and bind up digestive enzymes. Moose have a particularly unfortunate problem with phenolic in their diet - it's called the "moose drool" problem. Messy. Oxidation promotes all this binding. Phenolics that bind to each other, in specific or non-specific ways, are "polyphenolics".

The bigger polyphenolics get the less soluble they are. Eventually they are "fiber" and ruffage we can't digest.

The largest polyphenol is lignin, aka "wood". It's structural support for trees. And made from a mash-up of small phenolic acids. Insoluble, indigestible, and hard for pulp mills to remove from wood to make paper (from the cellulose, not a removed phenolics).

So there is one pathway to make many thousands of plant phenolics. Some are anti-microbial, antiviral, sunscreens, signals, spices, anti-oxidants, and precursors to drugs (aspirin, tamiflu, etc). In general high light / low nutrient conditions favor phenolic productive in plants. So modern agricultral practices tend to reduce phenolic levels, and reduce bitterness in crops. Want to make plants produce extra phenolics? Don't fertilize them, grow them in high light, and expose them to plant "danger" cues like sweet methyl jasmonate (any perfume) or methyl salicylate (oil of wintergreen, as in lifesavers candy; but asprin works too!) Seaweeds, fungi, and bactercia make phenolics differently. Some phenolic rich items are: acorns, willow stems, peals, leaf extracts, brown seaweeds.

Phenolics can be bound to sugars sometimes too. Their absorption and ability to cross the BBB varies and is relatively unknown.

Sorry I went on a bit. I love these molecules...

[Julie G]

You guys have my attention. I'm completely drowning in polyphenols through diet, high polyphenol EVOO, coffee, green tea and supplements (curcumin, quercetin, pycogenol, resveratrol, and now Vital Reds ) and I've often wondered about too much given the hormetic principal by which I assume they work. Hmmm, I wonder about cycling them interspersed with days off. Is anyone trialing this approach? Are you taking any supplemental polyphenols, Tom?

[Sandy57]

Julie long story short, if you are going to take multiple PP's you should pulse them. Read how Chris Shade does his supps for detox. You go in cycles. 3 on 2 off. 6 on 4 off and different versions and timeframes. The body will slow down its production of glutathione if you don't pulse, therefore in the long run you do not get the full benefits of the master hormone. So I advice cycling for PP; fine tuning is up to each individual.

Frank

[slacker]

I pulled down a transcript of the Barry Sears discussion that apod linked on his post. Dr Sears also discusses frequency of polyphenol supplementation:

"Barry: But there is a difference in bio availability, even having the fat, all the polyphenols you mentioned are incredibly water insoluble. If they’re water insoluble, they can’t get into your blood. If they can’t get in your blood, they don’t do you a whole lot of good. Now there are certain polyphenols which are more water soluble. These are the ones you find primarily in berries. But then you have a problem. Berries are also rich in sugars. So you have between a rock and a hard place. That’s why concentrates, concentrates of polyphenol sources, which have been now stripped out of non-biologically active materials and stripped out of carbohydrates, become a very, very excellent source to maintain the levels of these key ingredients we have to have on really a daily basis.

Dave: One of the other guests on the show Alberto Villoldo, who’s a cultural anthropologist, who got a start finding drugs on the Amazon 25 years ago and very unusual shaman, because we’re talking about mitochondria all the time, but he recommends doing things with high amounts of polyphenols only for 3, 4 days a week, taking a couple of days off to basically keep your body from getting attenuated to having these substances say your antioxidant enzyme systems get stressed naturally. Are you a fan of cycling your polyphenols or do you take polyphenols every day?

Barry: Every day. The reason why because the half-life of polyphenols, 1, they’re not very well absorbed. You have to take a lot just to try to get in the blood. If they get in the blood their half-life is incredibly short, measured in hours. They have only a very limited ability to basically do their activation of the genes and then they’re gone. The genes they’re activating are the 121 turned on all the time."

Bolding is mine, not transcript. So it appears that there is some difference of opinion on the subject of polyphenol cycling. I'm just the messenger.

[Fiver]

Hi Julie. I increased my consumption of tea, berries, and swapped diet soda for coffee. I occasionally eat dried seaweed - I try to convince myself it tastes good. Nothing too unusual. I did take tumeric supplements and resveratrol for short times, then studies came out casting doubt on both. I'd be more serious about it if there was some way to know it was making a difference. I'm interested in learning more about absorption and resident time in the blood - such a simple thing to test, but I haven't found many good studies so far. I figure phenolic rich foods are usually "good" all around...so it's on the plan.

I don't know anything about cycling them. Sorry. I'm sure it's possible to get too much (of PPs or anything else). One could estimate how much an ancestrial human gatherer could possibly consume and use that as a rough guide I suppose.

[Ladyjane]

Sorry I went on a bit. I love these molecules...[/quote]

I love that you love molecules. Thanks for the info!

[floramaria]

[quote="Tom

Sorry I went on a bit. I love these molecules...[/quote]


Thank you so much Tom for providing this information. I am grateful that you "went on a bit" since it provided a fascinating journey into the world of phenols. I am taking a lot of polyphenols and should probably try to understand what they are and what dosage and dosing protocols might be beneficial before I start exibiting "moose drool".