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CONFERENCE The Role of Nutrition in Dementia Prevention and Management March 26 - 27, 2015

Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, and other chronic diseases; biomarkers, lifestyle, supplements, drugs, and health care.
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Russ
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Re: CONFERENCE The Role of Nutrition in Dementia Prevention and Management March 26 - 27, 2015

Postby Russ » Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:20 pm

I wonder what sort of balance he's working on.


He didn't say, but this mouse study may be a place to start looking for ideas…

http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/meeting_abstract/25/1_MeetingAbstracts/528.2
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Re: CONFERENCE The Role of Nutrition in Dementia Prevention and Management March 26 - 27, 2015

Postby marthaNH » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:06 pm

I make big pots of gelatin-rich broth from beef, pig, and mutton bones and the carcasses of my organic chickens and cook with it all the time, pretty much every day. I hope that between that and keeping my meat and fish servings down to a couple ounces at a time that I'll wind up with a good balance, but I don't know how to track my homemade stuff. I pretend it's powdered consomme from the store. Nothing ever shows up next to glycine in my cronometer so I guess I must be doing something wrong.

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Re: CONFERENCE The Role of Nutrition in Dementia Prevention and Management March 26 - 27, 2015

Postby apod » Mon Apr 27, 2015 7:52 pm

marthaNH wrote:Nothing ever shows up next to glycine in my cronometer so I guess I must be doing something wrong.
On Cronometer under Profile>Protein you can put a little check next to Visible for Glycine (and Proline for data overload.) Mine is a little inflated because I like to use gelatin to thicken sauces / guac and often throw collagen protein in smoothies.

These articles come to mind:
http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topi ... -and-evil/
http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topi ... d-gelatin/

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Re: CONFERENCE The Role of Nutrition in Dementia Prevention and Management March 26 - 27, 2015

Postby marthaNH » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:25 am

Thank you!

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Re: CONFERENCE The Role of Nutrition in Dementia Prevention and Management March 26 - 27, 2015

Postby Fc1345linville » Wed Apr 29, 2015 2:52 pm

I was following recent posts on the subject of methionine and checked out http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topi ... -and-evil/. I thought I needed more background, so I googled metionine and found, among others, this post by an Oncologist, absolutely blasting methionine in the diet: http://www.integrativeoncology-essentia ... ich-foods/.

I think these kinds of apparent contradictions illustrate the danger of these free-wheeling discussions on this or any forum. Am I wrong?

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Re: CONFERENCE The Role of Nutrition in Dementia Prevention and Management March 26 - 27, 2015

Postby Juliegee » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:22 pm

I think these kinds of apparent contradictions illustrate the danger of these free-wheeling discussions on this or any forum. Am I wrong?

I hear your your concerns, FC. Has someone been extolling the virtues of methionine? I may have missed that... Whenever you think someone has posted information that you believe to be inaccurate, PLEASE feel free to do exactly what you have done; post information rebutting their claim.

Here is a link to our Community Guidelines: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=406
The science and understanding behind the APOE-ε4 allele is evolving. ALL theories and relevant discussion are welcome. Feel free to present information. Be prepared to back-up your viewpoint with personal or clinical experience, your physician's perspective, or published medical research. Kindly provide the URL when applicable. Back up unequivocal assertions with research. If your assertions are not proven, acknowledge that they are your opinion.

Because information related to the APOE-ε4 allele IS evolving, we try not to censor anyone (as long as they abide by Community Guidelines) but rather encourage respectful discourse that we hope will ultimately prove informational.

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Re: CONFERENCE The Role of Nutrition in Dementia Prevention and Management March 26 - 27, 2015

Postby Stavia » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:22 pm

Fc I personally find the intelligent wide discussion extremely useful. We as a group have started from first principles, looked critically at all the conflicting advice out there on the uncontrolled jungle that is the internet (and quite frankly scientific journals also have publication bias) and have respectfully, and with deep caring for each other, managed to reach a consensus over the past year or so. Of note is that our broad consensus, that we reached independently through (at times most passionate) discussion, is very closely aligned with that of many top clinicians in the field such as Isaacson and Bredesen. This supports my position that our method is valid. And one learns so much on the way!
I am proud to say that our discussions have made me a more open minded thinker that I was a year ago, when I was often dismissive of non-mainstream ideas without researching thoroughly.

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Re: CONFERENCE The Role of Nutrition in Dementia Prevention and Management March 26 - 27, 2015

Postby MarcR » Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:30 pm

Fc1345linville wrote:I was following recent posts on the subject of methionine and checked out http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topi ... -and-evil/. I thought I needed more background, so I googled metionine and found, among others, this post by an Oncologist, absolutely blasting methionine in the diet: http://www.integrativeoncology-essentia ... ich-foods/.

I think these kinds of apparent contradictions illustrate the danger of these free-wheeling discussions on this or any forum. Am I wrong?

I don't perceive a contradiction between the two sources you cite. In Dr. Masterjohn's paper, he decries our modern tendency to overemphasize high-methionine muscle meats. He notes the resulting negative effects on methylation as evidenced by excess homocysteine. He suggests ways to adjust diet to balance methionine and improve health.

Dr. Lawenda talks about methionine in the narrower context of fighting cancer. His solution focuses narrowly on reducing methionine as many cancers require it in large quantities. (That said, I do not endorse Dr. Lawenda's methionine-restriction-as-chemotherapy approach based on the limited evidence he presented in the article. If I had cancer, I would want to learn a lot more before trying to ride that horse to victory.)

I think Dr. Masterjohn's nuanced perspective targets healthy people seeking to optimize well being, and Dr. Lawenda's simplistic approach seeks to help sick people survive cancer. They both acknowledge excessive methionine as a problem.

Minor and/or major errors may exist in either article - our purpose here is to share, evaluate, discuss, and choose our own paths as best we can.
(Formerly merouleau)

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Re: CONFERENCE The Role of Nutrition in Dementia Prevention and Management March 26 - 27, 2015

Postby Russ » Fri May 01, 2015 8:40 am

Fc1345linville wrote:I was following recent posts on the subject of methionine and checked out http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topi ... -and-evil/. I thought I needed more background, so I googled metionine and found, among others, this post by an Oncologist, absolutely blasting methionine in the diet: http://www.integrativeoncology-essentia ... ich-foods/.

I think these kinds of apparent contradictions illustrate the danger of these free-wheeling discussions on this or any forum. Am I wrong?

I hope I didn't leave any misimpressions. I fully understand the that the lion's share of research presents strong evidence that methionine reduction/restriction has a range of beneficial impacts. But also think there's some interesting thoughts that the issue may not be as much methionine restriction as balance with glycine (and perhaps other co-factors?). Masterjohn made a similar argument w/r to Vitamins A and D several years ago that have largely played out (as far as I understand). I should note that when Gundry mentioned it to me, he was very explicit in saying that although he himself was playing with glycine supplementation to balance methionine, he would not yet recommend to patients (but we did not discuss details of his own self-experimentation).

Anyway, it's a complex thing, so as long as we're all well aware of the limitations in our assumptions, and have challenge from others with different skills and perspectives, frankly, I think we're more likely to find (and sometimes stumble) our way into useful insights via discussions here, than by waiting for the definitive science to be nailed down.
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Re: CONFERENCE The Role of Nutrition in Dementia Prevention and Management March 26 - 27, 2015

Postby RichardS » Fri May 01, 2015 3:01 pm

I read a variety of those papers and blog posts about methionine and glycine. The way I read it, eating only muscle meats for the bulk of one's protein seems to deviate from what we humans likely ingested from an evolutionary standpoint. It seems that around 20% of edible animal protein is from collagen, connective tissue and non-muscle organs.

Based on that, I've tried to add in some of those sources into my diet. While ideally they would come from whole animal nose-to-tail eating, in reality much of those cuts are not my cup of tea. My solution has been to make significant quantities of bone broth for regular consumption along with pork rinds (those with only pork skin and salt, no junk) and Great Lakes hydrolyzed gelatin which dissolves easily in liquids.

All of these have much lower methionine and much higher glycine ratios than muscle proteins. The bone broth has some additional benefits like minerals (though it seems impossible to quantify based on variations in how it is made). The pork rinds help me avoid nutrient sparse potato and tortilla chips with industrial oils. I aim for 10-20g/day from these alternate animal proteins. Due to being on an autoimmune elimination diet for the last 6 months, milk, eggs and (until recently) legumes are not in my diet, so the vast majority of my protein comes from meat. I can't say I've seen benefits in my health, but I'm taking the long view that approaching nose-to-tail eating is to my benefit.


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