WOW Discovery Brain/Immune Connection Vessels

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circular
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Re: WOW Discovery Brain/Immune Connection Vessels

Post by circular »

SusanJ thanks for the tip. I wish I could still do yoga. I used to do headstands and handstands and … I stopped years ago because I was already so flexible. It wasn't a challenge and I realized I needed strength, not flexibility. As time went on my ligaments got more lax and I got dx with the EDS hypermobile type and if I did those poses now I'd get injured. I do have scads of PT exercises I do, both land and water, and I love to walk and am a fast walker, so the movement is there, although I'm limited due to the exercise intolerance and can't get to the aerobic level/higher heart rate yet. I do inversions over an exercise ball to get blood to my head, at least once a day and trying to remember to do that twice. But I'm glad you mention yoga for others too because it has so many uses. I also sometimes do mini sessions of chi gong, tai chi and the like.

I think it's instructive that I already had plenty of movement to move my lymph and it wasn't working. It appears the lymph has stayed very congested and contributes to limiting my exercise tolerance (? - still exploring this). I think that even exercisers of whatever type could have areas of chronic lymph stagnation (to be confirmed).

The LDT seems to be the most direct influence on the lymph system. While identifying the stagnant areas it also helps get the lymph flowing in the proper directions in the different areas of the body so the fluid can get the wastes out along the lymphatic system pathways. I noticed the LDT goes in directions opposite other types of massage and plan to ask her, given people say massage helps move lymph, what affect it may have that it could often be moving it backwards!?

I think it may be a very good adjunct not replaceable by other methods, especially for subcategories of people, e.g. those with sleep problems and/or who don't sleep on their side so aren't clearing brain toxins well at night, those who have long standing emotional and stress blockages, those who may be taking a lot of supplements and/or prescriptions …

All that said, at this point I'm talking about the big picture of lymph therapy rather than fine points that might be found online, how it's done, whether all of its concepts are based in strong evidence etc. I've seen some things that make me question aspects of the world it comes out of. It definitely falls in the category of "frontier" it seems, along with crania-sacral therapy, but I don't want that to influence whether or not is helps me, and I want to keep it to science and personal experience, not whether or not cells have individual consciousness (although that could be an interesting thread in the Other category, a la Depak Chopra etc).

Gotta run, I seem to be very verbose this morning!!!
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Re: WOW Discovery Brain/Immune Connection Vessels

Post by Gilgamesh »

Fascinating disucssion.
SusanJ wrote:Circ, maybe find a good yoga instructor? There are several poses that drain lymph (including legs up the wall).
Are there any other "things one can do at home" to do an informal test of the possible/likely effectiveness of lymph drainage before going to a possibly expensive expert? I'd like to get an idea of whether this might be helpful to me.

GB

P.S. See discussion here, also.
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Re: WOW Discovery Brain/Immune Connection Vessels

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Good question. I haven't looked at these but just googled "video self lymph drainage" "https://www.google.com/search?client=sa ... 8&oe=UTF-8"

When I had the headache the next day I did my own little lymph massage of upper chest, neck, face and head and the headache went away. I think I aided the toxins that were released to get out. I used some general things I'd already learned. You'd want to avoid sending the lymph in the wrong direction.

I'm sure the videos might have more and I'll need to look into that. It may be very individual whether self work can take care of any issues one has or not. I think getting at least one treatment by someone experienced, if you're interested, gives you a template for how you can feel afterward. Also, trained therapists go into a lot of complexity and have developed a subtle feel for blockages, lymph flow direction and rate etc. Now that is a real area where woo woo could be a big factor, so I'm not saying they are clinically doing what they say. I don't know whether any can, or whether some can and others aren't so good. Same with crania-sacral therapy which I think is thrown in with things like homeopathy by self-described quack detectors. You can inject a dye into the lymph and record it's path and flow rate, which is probably how they mapped the system?

So this is really about experimentation, and experimenting on oneself may yield benefits as it did for me the day after my treatment. I guess it's probably like asking if giving yourself a massage can substitute for getting one by a good massage therapist. It may help some, but the total with professional help is greater than the sum of the parts.

I did find some articles the other day I have to get back to about how these lymph discoveries are really cutting edge stuff. I will link them here. The cerebral spinal fluid and interstitial fluid are both highly integrated with lymph, but it seems the mechanisms are still being explored.
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Lymphatic/glymphatic systems in the human brain

Post by Fc1345linville »

In the Health & Science section of May 23 Washington Post.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... 379fee3be0
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Re: WOW Discovery Brain/Immune Connection Vessels

Post by Julie G »

Thanks for sharing FC. Wow, a pic is worth a thousand words. I moved your post to a similar topic that was created when this was first discovered back in the fall of 2015.

FWIW, we discuss how this discovery may apply to our population here. Members & Dr. Ram Rao from The Buck Institute on Aging discuss implications and ways to benefit in the middle of this thread. Finally, we discuss the implications for sleep here.
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Re: WOW Discovery Brain/Immune Connection Vessels

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Thanks for posting this FC. When I began experimenting with lymph therapy in fall 2015 I think I had about three sessions. I didn't want the added expense (although this practitioner is very experienced, so it's not about overcharging). Then sometime in 2016 I began going again, oh, it was after my surgery, but in spite of my awareness of getting lymph massage around surgeries I had put it off. Since then I've gone about once every 3-4 weeks. Interestingly, along the way I started using the Restore product too. Once I had added that in all of a sudden the lymph treatments felt much more physically cleansing, for lack of technical words. I could feel movement almost like little a river flowing that I hadn't felt before and the therapist commented that she was getting more movement more easily. My health has been improving and I attribute it to a number of possible things, among which is regular lymph therapy. It's become part of my prevention protocol for as long as I can stomach the total cost of my combined interventions. I missed the last treatment and I've found myself feeling like I could use one, but it's hard to describe what it is I'm missing. How scientific! :ugeek: :roll: But I do suspect the science is going to add up to lymph treatments having their own value independent of exercise and other forms of movement.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.
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Re: WOW Discovery Brain/Immune Connection Vessels

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Just wanted to pop back in here and say that I've been getting roughly monthly lymph massages for a long while now. I have good sympatico with the therapist and received additional benefits through mutual sharing of other kinds of information, so I consider these sessions sort of all-round healing moments. It's become something I really look forward to as a pleasurable part of self-care (when so much of that is exorbitantly time consuming and not that pleasurable). I can't possibly say how much of a role if any the lymph massage plays in my continuing health improvements, but my 'gut' says it's a helpful part of the synergy of combined treatments. It just makes sense to me in broad theory.

As to the specifics, and this is the real point of my post, my therapist studied at the Chikly Health Institute and does the 'lymphatic drainage therapy' (LDT) taught there. This is a different form of lymph massage than what's usually offered by massage therapists who advertise 'manual lymphatic drainage' (MLD). The latter usually can be found cheaper, so I recently tried it to see if maybe I should switch to save money.

I'm here to report that -- at least between these two practitioners -- there was no comparison at all. The MLD wasn't much different from a regular massage given in a different order. I was really amazed at how much less focused on lymphatics it was, really like night and day. I'll continue to pay more for the Chikly approach, maybe every two months to halve the cost, because it seems to be in a whole different realm that is much more specific to the lymphatic system. I also find it just as relaxing as other forms of massage.

The page below describes some of the differences between these approaches. Admittedly, some sound rather like 'woo woo' medicine and I don't know what I think about 'sensing lymph flow direction', 'mapping' and the like, but I do know that my therapist gets referrals from doctors and surgeons. Other than that I'm really only going with my gut feeling from having had many sessions, combined with overall progress.

What is the specificity of LDT? What is the difference with other lymphatic schools such as the Vodder school?

I just thought I'd encourage anyone who wants to try lymphatic therapy to consider a Chikly Health Institute therapist while you're searching for what/who works for you. Based on my little experiment I wouldn't assume that a therapist doing 'manual lymphatic drainage' who isn't CHI trained is giving you the most specialized and complete lymph treatment. I would probably assume they are far from it (while be open to a wide variety of therapists out there!). I've noticed in the CHI's database of practitioners that mine has the most extensive training of all the others in my area, so no doubt the experience varies a lot by Chikly trained practitioners too.

Dr. Chikly also now teaches a brain curriculum to LDT practitioners that's clearly experimental, but I suspect his evolving techniques will at least help with fluid dynamics in the brain.

I'll be the first to say that this work still may be largely unproven in RCTs. It's just one of the places I'm willing to place a bet based on my experience and theory. I haven't taken time to read Chikly's peer-reviewed papers.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.
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Re: WOW Discovery Brain/Immune Connection Vessels

Post by Jan »

As always, so many excellent posts and tips. My thanks to all, as it was a subject I didn't know well at all. Such generous sharing on this site!
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