Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, and other chronic diseases; biomarkers, lifestyle, supplements, drugs, and health care.
User avatar
Julie G
Mod
Mod
Posts: 8534
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:36 pm

Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

Postby Julie G » Wed Feb 10, 2016 4:36 pm

Circ, I can relate to your struggle. When I was insulin resistant (not saying you are!) I was acutely metabolically inflexible. I had a very difficult time using glucose as my primary fuel. I had to eat OFTEN or face ravenous hunger/hypoglycemia. J. Stanton does an amazing job of elucidating this phenomenon in this old 2014 AHS presentation. Maybe you can glean something that will help.

User avatar
Stavia
Mod
Mod
Posts: 5265
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:47 pm
Location: Middle Earth

Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

Postby Stavia » Wed Feb 10, 2016 9:45 pm

Thanks Julie, very interesting.
Two thoughts after reading this
1. Exercise is so important for so many pathways
2. There is extreme individual variation.

circular
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 5098
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:43 am

Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

Postby circular » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:20 am

Thank you for that Julie! I had skimmed it the other day and thought to myself that I should come back to it and take it in. I'm not sure I ever would have gotten back to it except you directed me to it :-)

Don't be afraid to tell me my frustrations arise at least in part from insulin resistance, because they probably do! :D My symptoms have sure been indicative of insulin resistance for years now, but I was stymied by desirable blood sugar levels with no evidence there of hypoglycemic reactions, along with desirable weight, in the conventional view of things. It wasn't until learning about PCOS women with normal glucose but higher than normal insulin spikes to handle it that I began to have a possible underlying explanation for my symptoms, although I haven't tested this with a glucose tolerance test including insulin measures along the lines of what Dr. Kraft has used (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1965&hilit=kraft) and Meridian Labs offers (http://meridianvalleylab.com/Kraft-Prediabetes-Profile). Then came some weight gain around my middle I believe from increasing ERT ,(?) so I could focus on that pattern. Then enter stage left the suggestion from Brookler's work that inner ear problems can respond to improving insulin sensitivity when they are manifestations of poor fueling of this most energy needy part of the body, and I've had inner ear problems since high school (viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1959&hilit=inner+ear). Note: Kraft and Brookler are friends and from the sounds of it their work is going nowhere in the conventional medical world.

None of that proves a thing, but at least a picture is emerging on the borders of medicine that defies the evidence base as conventional researchers require it but seems to coalesce with my medical history. So it's pretty much experimentis dailyis.

This morning I have another of my frequent migraines, so I'm prepared not to be 20 years old again in the long run, but maybe keto will help.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.

hill dweller
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 1:26 pm

Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

Postby hill dweller » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:47 am

Re: beverages. This is the most boring aspect of the keto diet for me. I get tired of water and herbal teas. I stumbled on this yesterday: unsweetened coconut milk with 1/4 teaspoon of cinnamon powder and 1/2 teaspoon of ginger powder. The cinnamon and ginger are good anti-inflammatories and pick up the tropical flavor of the coconut. Give them a good stir as you drink, because they settle. I prefer room temperature or warm over cold.

The only coconut milks that I could find had guar gum thickeners. I wish I could find something with just coconut and water. The next time I go to the local spice warehouse outlet, I think I will buy coconut powder and try to make my own. This place is great BTW for bulk herbs, and if you aren't in the area, that's ok, as most of their business is wholesale shipping: http://www.sfherb.com/

User avatar
Julie G
Mod
Mod
Posts: 8534
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:36 pm

Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

Postby Julie G » Thu Feb 11, 2016 9:55 am

Stavia, yes & yes! First. exercise rules as our primary strategy. Second, there is tremendous individual variation. I see many members here (like you) who have no symptoms of metabolic issues. I see others with frank symptoms and biomarkers and still others (like Circ & myself) with symptoms and mixed biomarkers. This is definitely not a one-size-fits-all problem for E4 carriers, BUT we do start with a cerebral glucose metabolic deficiency that can very quickly deteriorate with insulin resistance. Age and menopause (because estrogen is involved in glucose transport) exacerbate this phenomenon putting post-menopausal women at MUCH higher risk.

Sorry about your headache, (((Circ.))) I think you may be getting to the root causes of your metabolic inflexibility. I'm hopeful that will help you in resolving things. XO

User avatar
Stavia
Mod
Mod
Posts: 5265
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:47 pm
Location: Middle Earth

Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

Postby Stavia » Thu Feb 11, 2016 10:31 am

Exactly Julie. The huge individual variation is IMO telling us that the mitochondrial defect IS hackable. Something in my body is (partially probably, not completely) compensating. Yours wasn't until you found the work-around and now it is. Circ, keep experimenting.

User avatar
LG1
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 360
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:32 am
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

Postby LG1 » Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:01 pm

[quote="Juliegee"]Circ, it was Dr. Stephan Cunnane who suggested those of us with a deficit need a minuscule BHB level to compensate for our decreased cerebral hypometabolism: .3-.5 mmol. FWIW that low level isn't quite enough for me. I wake up around .5 mmol and throughout the day get up to 2.0 at the most. I typically stay in the 1.0s- still pretty mild. That level has addressed my wacky BG and cognitive issues issues and makes me feel at least "a decade younger." ;)

Julie, or someone... what is this (BHB level) and what supplement are you taking? Thanks, confused.

Laura
ε4/ε4

User avatar
Stavia
Mod
Mod
Posts: 5265
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:47 pm
Location: Middle Earth

Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

Postby Stavia » Thu Feb 11, 2016 3:57 pm

Laura honey BHB is a ketone, it stands for beta hydroxy butyrate. Our bodies make it under certain circumstances such as fasting, high fat low carb diet, exercise (and also in some illnesses that don't pertain to us.) Our mitochondria can use it as an alternative fuel source instead of glucose. Please have a look at my newcomers guide, it explains fully how the mitochondria are the little batteries powering our bodies and they can use glucose or ketones of which the commonest is BHB. Its not a supplement. Our bodies have to make it (though there are some supplements that might mimic it but its all very complicated)

In e4s our mitochondria dont work very well in terms of burning glucose. Some of us are trying to make up the gap by getting our bodies to generate ketones for our mitochondria to burn.

circular
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 5098
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:43 am

Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

Postby circular » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:07 pm

You can supplement BHB itself using KetoForce, but it's very expensive. Some use this to help with the transition into ketosis or otherwise supplementally. This product was backed by Dom D'Agostino in an interview, so I think it's okay if used judiciously. He's a big ketosis researcher (http://www.bengreenfieldfitness.com/201 ... tone-fuel/)

http://prototypenutrition.com/ketoforce.html
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.

User avatar
LanceS
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 250
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:37 am

Re: Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

Postby LanceS » Thu Feb 11, 2016 4:20 pm

Stavia wrote:Exactly Julie. The huge individual variation is IMO telling us that the mitochondrial defect IS hackable.


hackable? Is this settled medical science? :lol:

Or are you trying to break into the FDA computer networks. Before you read anything you find there, keep in mind they can't even find lead in drinking water. :oops:

I am just kidding. I agree whole heartedly with your statement.

Read something the last few days reminding me that some people don' t think its the ketones necessarily its the FFA... Free Fatty Acid ... that as our bodies get better in ketosis of utilizing FFA, we get lactate. Of the preferred brain fuels, I think it goes lactate, ketones, then glucose. Lactate from hard exercise, fasting to eat the kill (with some ketones sprinkled in), and glucose for when our bodies produce it and also for when we eat berries seasonally.

Somehow we ended up upside down it seems... as we got into a "eat all the time" mode where we never fasted because the food companies didn't want us to stop eating ever... and we were too trusting that our fellow man could be part of a conspiracy to make us eat all the time.

Anyway not feeling like ranting today... last point... FFA metabolism seems to take a while ... not sure if there are things that can be done to speed it up? "Fat adapted"... easy to say, easy to spell... think it took me over a year. That seems to be when keto made more sense to me (beyond slimming my waist)... I got stronger my brain fog generally cleared up. I think my body started to consume lactate more often and decided it was at least as good as glucose.

Peace out. #APOE4livesmatter

PS. I don' t mean to imply ketones don't help. They absolutely do and they absolutely helped me. And I did take some ketone supplement today as I've screwed up my diet with 2 much seaweed salad... it tasted 2 good not 2 have sugar.... come on man!


Return to “Prevention and Treatment”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests