Intermittent fasting protocols to improve insulin control

[cdamaden]

Thanks Katie and Julie. I have tubs of coconut oil. I was leaning towards not using it due to the SFAs. As you say, it might be a nice transition product. I liked adding it to my coffee before - so I'll give that a whirl. I have been wanting to add salt, so I think my body is giving the right signals there.

I don't think I have a problem with nuts/seeds per se, they're just listed on my sheet as being medium FODMAPs.

So my first meal today was low carb (2 cups romaine lettuce, 2 oz organ meat, 1 1/2 cups zucchini, 1 tbls avocado oil, small banana). After 1 hour my BG was at 87, then at 2 hours was at 84.

I really do appreciate the coaching and feedback!

[marthaNH]

Also careful with just using fasting glucose. Its the area under the curve (AUC ) that counts, ie the average over the day. I wake at 5.2 (93), drop during the morning to about 4.8ish (86ish) or a bit lower but never go over 6.2 (110) after eating ie my curve is very flat. Even after 26 hrs fasting I sit at just over 5 (90 ish). And this is all in slight ketosis. Obviously my gluconeogenesis is constant and stable. This gives me a great fasting insulin and HbA1c so I certainly don't have IR.
So don't necessarily target a low fasting glucose, its only part of the story.

I read this a while back and found it very reassuring. It kind of depends on the test strips -- one box seems to tend a little high while the next might be lower -- but my fasting blood glucose is rarely in the 70s whether fasting, exercising, or anything else. About as rarely, it will go into the low 90s. I have a few outliers on record that I don't much worry about, but it just doesn't go low. I have no lab markers that suggest IR and a1c has been 5.1 or 5.2, fasting insulin 4.8. An hour after meals (depending on the meal) I tend to be around 106 to 112. But if I go looking for spikes -- my highest readings tend to come 35 to 45 minutes after eating -- I will find them if I've eaten carbs without a lot of fat and sometimes even if I have included oil or nuts. Avocado seems to blunt it particularly well. My spikes seem crazy high to me -- the worst was 220 after a temper tantrum led me to make cookies for lunch. Good cookies, not very sweet cookies, cookies full of almonds and coconut oil -- but cookies. So I am being careful to avoid the things that cause that. I also get a sugar buzz -- unmistakable -- when I sin and it corresponds to those 35-45 min. spikes. I have a lot of diabetes in the family, I used to be about 30 pounds heavier, and I'm 60. I can't really complain.

But I have found it nearly impossible to get through the night without eating something, as I've shared on here. A three hour fast before bed guaranteed that I would wake up hungry. After sleeping, I could get up and extend the fast for a good long time, 16 hours was no big deal and 14 or 15 was standard. All that was somewhat disrupted this past fall and winter, with lots of travel and company making it hard to eat "my way" and a heavy workload making me lean on my convenience foods -- nuts and Greek yogurt. Proteins went kind of high.

I've just recently tweaked my diet to about double the leafy greens and vegetables, a lot less Greek yogurt (my weakness), less protein overall, more olive oil, somewhat fewer nuts. Vegetables chosen for BP-lowering potential (I'm trying to mimic a month-long study) include beets, so that's my sugar splurge. No grains or beans right now, though I don't exclude them entirely (I have a hard time hitting all my Bs without some beans once in a while). My net carbs are running 60s to 70s and sometimes low 80s. I wasn't trying to do long (more than 12-hour) fasts at the same time, partly because I wondered if overdoing IF was raising my cortisol or something, but all of a sudden I found myself coasting easily to 17 hours, took a 3-hour before bed fast in stride -- truly not hungry -- didn't eat during the night, and settled happily for hundreds fewer calories than usual. I didn't feel buzzy or weird the way I have sometimes in ketosis and wasn't really trying to get very far into it. Blood pressure also seems to be responding, though it's fickle and has its own agenda.

I took advantage of a post from George yesterday sharing Gundry's Matrix list because I thought some of this sounded familiar, and found that I'm eating a lot along his lines for E4s, for what that's worth.

So I'm just puzzling through this and hoping I continue to have the at-home time to do the food prep and shopping and kitchen discipline that it takes to keep it up. I am going to head to Costco today and buy another couple of quarts of their organic vegetable barley soup, because I found that using that as a base and adding a lot of my own vegetables, olive oil, and home-made gelatin-rich broth produced a quick, filling meal.

That's a long one. Wondering if anybody else had had the experience of easy fasting and weight loss with this big increase in vegetables. (I had a sudden weight drop a little over a year ago when I did something similar.) Makes me wonder if my body is reading those veggie starches and sugars the same way it does the various other kinds. My fruit intake has been pretty constant, berries and about one apple or less a week.

[Julie G]

My net carbs are running 60s to 70s and sometimes low 80s. I wasn't trying to do long (more than 12-hour) fasts at the same time, partly because I wondered if overdoing IF was raising my cortisol or something, but all of a sudden I found myself coasting easily to 17 hours, took a 3-hour before bed fast in stride -- truly not hungry -- didn't eat during the night, and settled happily for hundreds fewer calories than usual. I didn't feel buzzy or weird the way I have sometimes in ketosis and wasn't really trying to get very far into it. Blood pressure also seems to be responding, though it's fickle and has its own agenda.

Congrats, Martha! You've made huge progress with fasting. I also eat tons of vegetables; around 10 cups or more a day, but because they're primarily non-starchy they still only add up to around 70 grams max. I use olive oil liberally and keep my protein pretty low. Like you, this allows me to fast pretty easily. When I begin cheating- adding more starchy carbs, fruit or eating closer to bedtime, fasting gets much harder for me too. I think many of experience this phenomenon.

The kitchen prep is tiring with so many vegetables. I've found some good frozen organic vegetables (broccoli & spinach) that I saute with sweet onion. It's quick and easy and saves a little with prep. Because you are already small, you might consider adding in some nuts and or seeds to maintain your weight. I suspect that the longer you can maintain this pattern, the more your BP will respond. Kudos!!!

[Tincup]

I also eat tons of vegetables; around 10 cups or more a day, but because they're primarily non-starchy they still only add up to around 70 grams max. I use olive oil liberally and keep my protein pretty low.

Amazing how similarly we eat. A Gundry/Walhs cross...

[Surfrank57]

aloha

I am so bummed. Had a super long post almost finished, did not hit save draft and it's gone to IT heaven. I will repost tomorrow. Love that people are playing along with the research game and nobody took it the wrong way. You guys are awesome and this is the best forum I have ever been on. Egos are left outside and everybody comes together for the benefit of all. You all have a common goal of health and it is exciting to see the commitment.

Julie I have some info from the owner of VSC .com for you and will email his offer to your email. Again I had a really long post almost done and it has thought me a lesson. I will do long posts in word and save.

One quick FYI. Keep in mind as you play along and figure out the puzzle; IF and fasting are not diets in and of themselves. It is an eating window. You can be on high carbs, low carbs, no sugar, high sugar and everything in between. So when researching or talking anecdotally you have to remember to keep variables constant or in check. A good example is I have put patients on IF to gain weight. I have out eaten a 16/ 8 window easily myself, and did not lose weight. I have had people stall on a 16/8 fast, just because they were over eating nuts. So what is that doing to your insulin, if you gain fat, or even muscle? What is happening to your blood sugar when in a calorie excess, but on a fast of some sort. Trust me it is easily done. Those that lose weight on fasts are in calorie restricted zones, the fast doesn't make you lose weight, the difference in energy balance does. All diets work when calories are controlled for, soup diet grapefruit diet, Atkins, Zone, etc. People are motivated when they first start a diet; they exercise more, eat less and then claim their diet rocks. As soon as the energy balance shifts, so will the weight loss. Hate to say it, it is as simple as that.The key when you look at this, is the laws of physics and energy balance. It is a rare person that can defy these laws, usually steroid users.
So if you are in a deficient you lose weight, if an excess gain weight. But what is going on with insulin and blood sugar and other metabolic markers is the question.....ok more later.

This mold remediation is just horrendous and is taking all my time. I wish I could just post more often because you guys motivate me and it helps Sandy, which is key.

Frank

[marthaNH]

I also eat tons of vegetables; around 10 cups or more a day, but because they're primarily non-starchy they still only add up to around 70 grams max. I use olive oil liberally and keep my protein pretty low. Like you, this allows me to fast pretty easily. When I begin cheating- adding more starchy carbs, fruit or eating closer to bedtime, fasting gets much harder for me too. I think many of experience this phenomenon.

The kitchen prep is tiring with so many vegetables. I've found some good frozen organic vegetables (broccoli & spinach) that I saute with sweet onion. It's quick and easy and saves a little with prep. Because you are already small, you might consider adding in some nuts and or seeds to maintain your weight. I suspect that the longer you can maintain this pattern, the more your BP will respond. Kudos!!!

I am going to put up a little note card in the kitchen: "It's the vegetables, Martha." Went all the way to Costco (1-hour plus hike) to get more of the soup I liked and it's gone for the summer, apparently. So I bought their organic chicken stock, emptied all the leftovers, some frozen veggies, some fresh, plus a can of tomatoes and some home-made pesto that had been hanging around, and came up with almost 3 quarts of my own version. It wasn't so much trouble as long as I didn't have to make the chicken stock. I'm not eating chicken these days, so didn't want to get into that. I make my own dense gelatin with beef bones and/or pigs feet. With warm weather coming on, I'm going to want to stockpile some of that.

Surfrank, good luck with the mold remediation and with Sandy. I hear you re: energy balance. I understand the math. But for me, my eating patterns have a huge impact on whether I'm able to work, sleep, concentrate, and be happy while maintaining a negative energy balance. And as you say, all these other factors -- insulin, lipids, etc. -- are what we're really concerned with once we get the pounds problem under control. I wish all my issues went away once I got thin, but they didn't.

And back to the blood pressure. The unexpected weight loss and good blood pressure that I experienced a little over a year ago came when I was carrying a lighter work load and eating a ton of vegetables. I assumed that the BP dropped because the weight dropped. I also had a meter that might have been reading low, so hard to manage all this properly without a bunch of lab rats and research assistants! But hopefully I'll be able to stop the weight loss a little short of the scrawny/scary stage and still get the BP benefit. I'd like to cut back on the meds, at least back to where I was before. I don't much like taking anything forever.

One happy thing I read was that people with that bad blood pressure snp -- 5186 CC -- don't seem to have more CHD. No info on other damage that it might do. Thus spake Promethease.

[circular]

Surfrank57, Thanks for chipping in your perspective. By energy balance are you referring to calories in/calories out? If so, what do you make of Jason Fung's alternative view? https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/ ... t-problem/

[cdamaden]

Just a quick update for me. I've been measuring my blood glucose at various times. Here are some conclusions on an IF of 8 hrs on/ 16 hrs fasting:
1. My new fasting blood glucose has been rather steady at 80 mg/dL, down from ~100. Until I get tested by a lab or buy the chemicals to calibrate my device (precision xtra) that's my new reference.
2. On low carb meals, my 1-hour reading goes up about 10-15 units. By the next hour it has dropped by half.
3. On higher carb meals, my 1-hour reading goes up to 25-40 units (~100-125 mg/dL). By the next hour it has dropped by half or more.

My overall macros have been 15-20% protein, 20-25% carbs, 60% lipids. I eat low carb through the day and have a higher carb dinner. I suspect that I go into ketosis during the night and come out of it for dinner (maybe 75/25 split of the day).

Adding coconut oil to my morning coffee has helped! Still working through GERD - not sure if increased fat and lowering of protein may be contributing or coincidental. I will shift my 16 hour fast this weekend to skip dinner to see the impact on GERD at night.

Really great dialogue so far on the topic. I appreciate all the coaching and feedback - keep it coming!
Regards,

[Harrison]

Surfrank57, Thanks for chipping in your perspective. By energy balance are you referring to calories in/calories out? If so, what do you make of Jason Fung's alternative view? https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/ ... t-problem/

Thanks for posting that. It nicely sums up my dietary history for the past several years in a way that matches my experience. After trying low-fat and caloric restriction unsuccessfully, I became a a dyed-in-the-wool Gary Taubes fan and went LCHF. I did pretty well, but hit a wall in terms of weight loss. So then I added intermittent fasting and had more success, but again hit a well. Then I threw in some caloric restriction by way of decreasing fat and going for more vegetables and had more success. I started questioning the Taubes dogma and started thinking there must be something to Calories In-Calories Out (CICO) that never seemed to work for me before LCHF. The Jason Fung article basically seems to be saying exactly that. CICO only works after you've reset your body's ability to use fat stores and/or increased insulin sensitivity, which explains why most people who start out with caloric restriction have no luck. Of course everybody is different and I fully expect somebody has had the opposite experience, but it was refreshing to see a scientific explanation for my experience.

[hill dweller]

Chris wrote:

Still working through GERD

Have you tried adding an acid to each meal? Try any of these: pickles (no sugar), sauerkraut, lemon juice (dress salad/vegs), vinegar (balsalmic, rice wine, apple cider, coconut, etc). Just a teaspoon or so may do the trick.