No vegans on this forum?

Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, and other chronic diseases; biomarkers, lifestyle, supplements, drugs, and health care.
VictorN
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No vegans on this forum?

Postby VictorN » Mon May 23, 2016 7:41 pm

Hi guys. I still don't get why I can't find anybody on this forum who practices a diet similar to mine - vegan, mostly raw, no processed foods (which include olive oil in my books), and heavy on Nutritarian G-BOMBS (Greens, Beens, Onions, Mushrooms, Berries, Seeds). Why is that?

My level of knowledge is still lowbrow comparing to what you guys know, but my health improvements on this diet might be worth to consider. If it helped me, it could help others. My point is, I don't believe I'm that different genetically from the rest of you. Am I in 0.02 percentile of apoe4 carriers? Of course not. That can't be.

Maybe it's been a "natural selection" and all vegans left and now hang out on other forums? Or maybe there's simpler explanation I overlooked?

Viktor, 3/4

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Re: No vegans on this forum?

Postby Silverlining » Tue May 24, 2016 4:28 am

Hi Viktor! I am a 4/4, female, 51 yrs. I am lacto-ovo vegetarian, but I'm mindful of my sat fat intake. My biomarkers are decent, in my opinion. There is one member here I can think of who is vegan. His user name is James and he's a 4/4. Here is a thread he posted a while back on his lipid profile:

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=538

There's also a crossthread you might find interesting at longecity that James started:

http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/58 ... poprofile/

I'm glad you're here and doing well!

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evelynanne
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Re: No vegans on this forum?

Postby evelynanne » Tue May 24, 2016 8:57 am

H Viktor! I'm 3/4 female and strive to eat and prefer a vegan diet but often lapse because I am a huge foodie who loves to travel and eat in restaurants and cook for meat eaters. I also write diet and health books for experts and understand the important benefits for many with chronic diseases of a low-grain or no-grain or even ketogenic diet. However, vegan has always been my favorite way to eat. I, too, was surprised when I recently joined this forum because, as I first began to research what it means to be a 3/4, I understood that low-fat was important, especially saturated fat. I was excited about this because I thought that it suggested a vegan diet was really the best one for me. I also read that some of the researchers such as the (apparently controversial) Dr. Gundry recommend that people with a "4" eat no animal products at all, with the exception of shellfish if they want it, due to inflammatory tendencies. Yet, this forum seems to have quite a few ketogenic and low-carb people, which surprised me as well. I do understand that there is good evidence that we have suppressed glucose metabolism in the brain that could lead to dementia-related changes, and that ketone bodies can provide some of that fuel we may not be getting, and that is quite interesting to me. On the other hand, everyone has a different philosophy and eats what makes sense and feels right to her/him, and it probably depends on whether you are focusing more on inflammation or more on blood sugar. Personally, my blood sugar is pretty good and steady and comes down very quickly after eating carbs, but I do have inflammation when I eat a lot of meat, so vegan feels best to me. However, I look forward to continuing the learning process and of course the body is ever-changing. I am never so married to any dietary philosophy that I can't at least consider all the many options we have as natural omnivores who can survive on everything from taro root to whale blubber. But so far, I still feel best eating vegan.

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Re: No vegans on this forum?

Postby bentkat » Tue May 24, 2016 8:58 am

Nearly vegan

I eat salmon once a week for my brain, but otherwise I am whole food, mostly plants

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Re: No vegans on this forum?

Postby TheresaB » Tue May 24, 2016 9:23 am

Victor,

I became a vegan many years ago when my doctor wanted to put me on statins. Thank goodness my gut told me to avoid statins at all cost, I now know that statins seem to promote a type of amyloid process that leads to dementia.

As a vegan I felt great, I really enjoyed being a vegan but I did not know my ApoE4 status at the time. I also wasn’t knowledgeable on the effects of insulin resistance, nor had I ever had a blood test indicating blood sugar issues, so I was unconcerned with my carbohydrate intake justifying it as necessary with my very active lifestyle. I now know I should have been more mindful of that. Additionally, many vegan diets tend to be low fat, however, that was not me. My diet wasn’t exactly high fat, but I made a point of getting fat in my diet, mostly through olive oil, which was more dumb luck than an educated decision.

My watershed moment came after we learned of our ApoE4 statuses and my husband and I consulted with Dr Steven Gundry. So about a year ago I morphed to an “almost vegan” but one that probably eats more vegetables than before. Dr Gundry does work with vegan patients, but I was not against giving up my vegan ways, as my diet motivation was health driven not animal-rights driven. I’d now categorize my diet as low carb, high (good) fat, adequate protein consisting of mostly raw, non-starchy, non processed foods, with no more than 20 grams (not much) a day of white fish, shell fish, or Omega-3/pastured eggs. (NO dairy, beef, pork, poultry, or fish that’s not white.)

Dr. Gundry emphasizes low animal fat for everyone with his “Matrix Diet” but doubly emphasizes this for ApoE4 carriers encouraging a mostly plant-based diet for ApoE4s. Nevertheless, he praises the benefits of shellfish. He told us shellfish are incredibly good for you. Shellfish have plant sterols that lower absorption of cholesterol, sweeping away oxidized LDL. He does, however, caution about only eating wild caught shrimp (not farmed). Farmed muscles, scallops, clams are okay as long as they are not fed anything.

Although you consider it processed food, I do eat lot of olive oil. Organic, unrefined, unfiltered extra virgin olive oil (EVOO) to be exact. My husband and I go through about a liter a week. This is because Dr Gundry emphasized that olive oil is our “best friend” (his words) as it’s high in polyphenols that bind to oxidized cholesterol (the bad stuff).

Also, during my first consultation a year ago, as a vegan, my Omega 3 Index was very low. He emphasized that as an Apoe4 carrier, I needed more DHA and EPA in my system. White fish/shell fish/Omega-3 eggs helps with this, but I also supplement daily with fish oil. My last test was better, but still not good enough because I misunderstood his guidance and wasn't taking the supplementation level I should have been. I now take what he recommends, 1000 mg of DHA a day, and expectantly await how my level will be at my next test as this was the only biomarker that was not in the “Rock Star” category on my last test.

The biomarkers from my first test a year ago were not “bad” but my cholesterol/triglyceride levels did need work, I had indications of inflammation, and my Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (IGF-1) had room for improvement. Following his dietary/supplementary recommendations has made a difference in all these areas. Given his knowledge of the effects of diet within a genetic framework and his success with numerous ApoE4 patients, I’m comfortable with my “almost vegan” diet.

That’s my story.
-Theresa
ApoE 4/4

VictorN
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Re: No vegans on this forum?

Postby VictorN » Tue May 24, 2016 10:49 am

Thank you all for your replies!

I agree that going 100% vegan is not a goal per se. I don't care about animals welfare or political reasons though. (I don't even like the word "vegan", since "vegan diet" might have too many variations.) My reason is health and health only. Like bentkat, I was eating wild salmon once a week for 2.5 years and yes, I felt great. Then last year I decided I don't need it, and so far it looks like I'm getting even better without it. My HDL might look too low for you, but it was even lower after one year onto the diet, when I was still eating salmon and one egg per week.

As for olive oil (and other oils), I tend to believe Dr. Fuhrman and not others. Interesting, how it works. There are two MDs, both are apparently knowledgeable researchers, both claim they worked with literally tens of thousands of patients - but those two doctors have come to different conclusions! Why is that? Maybe the science is still mostly in the dark about details of in vivo human metabolism, gut microbiota, exact effects of whole foods, etc. No surprise one has to choose which camp to follow, and this decision is more based on faith than on hard science.

Viktor, 3/4

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Re: No vegans on this forum?

Postby circular » Tue May 24, 2016 11:37 am

Viktor I'm so glad you're bringing more voices out about your perspective. We need to hear everyone's experience, since it really helps with appreciating how varied our own biochemical responses can be to a given diet. Then there's the interpretation of what those variances indicate or imply, in all dietary contexts, which can get complex. We often but not always act, consciously, without sufficient data to unequivocally support what we're doing. This is the nature of being e4 today, because unfortunately the AD research community has not been focused on our unique genotype, even though it's the largest known genetic susceptibility impact on late onset AD. It does seem like there's an increase of awareness in the research community that more attention needs to focus on e4, and all studies in AD should genotype participants. One purpose of our group is to beat the drum and help drive this shift. Meanwhile, during the time this forum has been active, some years now, new findings are continually being published that give us food for thought. Some 'things' are moving further along the spectrum from hypothesis to confirmation, but most 'things' need more study in large RCTs. Our uncertainty applies to all diets except, really, the SAD full of processed food (there maybe different takes on what's good/bad processed at the edges, e.g. EVOO). There have been some recent, decently well-designed dietary studies (hard to come by given the challenges of dietary studies!) focused on or addressing AD prevention: FINGER, MIND, and PREDIMED come to mind.

Would a strict vegan diet bring about better outcomes for some? Not sure, but I read Campbell years ago and was vegan and had terrible gut issues. Now I work with Dr. Gundry, so the large balance of my diet is vegan and mostly raw, but in addition it's very low lectin while vegans generally eat a very high lectin diet. I modify his approach slightly. I do eat salmon (dark fish) twice a week for food-sourced omega 3 (I have a homozygous SNP that significantly impairs conversion of linolenic acid to omega 3), and my protein is about 40 grams, give or take, because I'm currently trying to build muscle and recover from surgery. I also have a hard time staying satiated, even in mild ketosis (although that's better), and I'm not losing the small amount of belly fat that I should in ketosis, so I need to cut back the fat calories and achieve better satiation. That leaves protein and my gut doesn't tolerate plant proteins at all. I'm very sensitive to lectins and always have been, not just gluten and dairy: all grains and legumes, and now, I'm learning many vegetables too. So that's not a yes to whether anyone else on the forum is vegan, but to explain that I've been there, done that, and strict vegan doesn't work for me. That's not even addressing glucose and insulin levels on a high carb, even if whole food, intake. With the known e4 hypometabolism of glucose I don't want to take my chances by running higher glucose as opposed to making ketones available as fuel for my brain. Many people experience better cognition in ketosis, supporting this perspective that the brain prefers ketones as fuel (although there are parts of the brain that still require their glucose I think).

I hope you'll continue to test new biomarkers that we feel may be very important to e4s to track so we can better assess your status in the context of a vegan diet. I've just been to the lab today to get some that I can't get through my doctor, but I could order them from Life Extension. It's always happy dance time when someone's diet is what they want to eat as well as what their biomarkers suggest to them is good for them to eat :)

Silverlining thanks for bringing up this older thread. I start reading and I'll have to print it for later. (viewtopic.php?f=29&t=538)
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.

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Re: No vegans on this forum?

Postby Surfrank57 » Tue May 24, 2016 11:44 am

Been vegan a few times in my life, just a hard way to keep muscle for me. It also has significantly decreased my strength when straight vegan. I do not eat any pork or beef, but do eat fish, chicken and turkey now. Just n=1.

Frank

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Re: No vegans on this forum?

Postby VictorN » Tue May 24, 2016 11:53 am

circular wrote:I hope you'll continue to test new biomarkers that we feel may be very important to e4s to track so we can better assess your status in the context of a vegan diet.


I will, definitely. Thanks for interesting post. Again and again, I realize how much I need to learn.

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Re: No vegans on this forum?

Postby VictorN » Tue May 24, 2016 12:00 pm

Surfrank57 wrote:Been vegan a few times in my life, just a hard way to keep muscle for me. It also has significantly decreased my strength when straight vegan. I do not eat any pork or beef, but do eat fish, chicken and turkey now. Just n=1.

Frank


Hi Frank!

Sad but true. Same story - very hard to keep muscle and strength. And it's logical though - no one will gain muscle on diminished calorie supply. Not going to happen.

What were your strength results before and after? I lost about 30 pounds (from 180 to 150; I guess half of them was muscle), and my bench press is down at least 30%.


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