No vegans on this forum?

[James]

For the first year or so, I was losing fat faster than muscles, but for the last two years it was mostly muscle loss, since all available fat is already gone.

I'm in this same situation, thought at this point in my life I think I'd prefer to be a bit slimmer simply for comfort and to reduce the wear and tear on my joints, both from weighing less and from not being as strong so not lifting very heavy things. I do still strength train though, but I've had to psychologically shift my perception of being strong.

I don't consume protein powder because it might raise IGF-1 (even plant varieties). I also do much more cardio than before - this, too, stays in the way of gaining muscle. And yes, my calorie intake is probably in negative energy balance most of the time. It's hard to be otherwise, since I have to stuff myself silly three times a day just to maintain my body weight. It's probably great for longevity but I need to stop kidding myself - I'm never going to be big and strong again.

Again, I'm right there with you. I do consume protein powder though, and my 90-110 g/d vegan protein intake resulted in a low plasma IGF-1 of 126 ng/mL. It takes quite a bit more plant protein to raise IGF-1, and even then a low calorie diet will somewhat reduce IGF-1 regardless. My point is that perhaps you could get a blood test to see where you are before worrying too much about it.

I also cram in a large volume of food to maintain my calorie intake, but I also really like vegetables and fruit. If I'm very active I will consume more refined starches like bread and white rice, bananas, or more often I'll just add in more nuts or peanut butter. At this point it's a calorie problem, not a protein problem.

Still, it might be a good idea to be active, lean, and muscular but more slender compared to being larger with age, especially with ApoE4. But my recommendation for this comes down to the ability to maintain physical activity with advanced age (planning ahead by reducing wear and tear now), glucose, lipids, blood pressure, etc. Some people find it easier to maintain these eating less overall, though being larger because of more muscle mass may allow for consuming more food while maintaining metabolic health. My point here being that it's more prudent to test biomarkers and alter lifestyle accordingly. Sadly, though, at some point one must throw in the towel, but being "big and strong" is relative and you can certainly be very fit, especially for a smaller (or less big?) person and compared to other old dudes. From what I can see you are still doing pretty well!

[circular]

James just to share my husband's experience to show I think you are on the right track re: choosing leaner but a bit less strong body, since you're probably like Viktor and started very built. My husband has always been extremely active and built, although has been lean as a 'pisceterian' (vegan eating fish) for decades. He's had a troublesome back since being a linebacker in college football, and he had his first hip replacement at age 50 due to his activities. The occasionally surfacing elbow bursitis etc. But he's kept up the pace and stayed fit, just replacing swimming and nordic walking for running over the years. Now his back is getting much worse with age, even without any extra body weight, and his posture has changed dramatically. Usually now he comes back from his ~3-4 hours of morning activity bent forward at his waist, but sometimes he arrives home tall again. Lately he's taller and straighter again. I asked what he was doing differently (he's always experimenting with different exercises to try to help the situation), and he said, "I'm just doing less", yep, I need to just be at peace with doing less. I told him he'd earned more balance in his life. So I think in some the heavy weightlifting can really take a toll that can show up later in life, as it has with my husband who's always been lean and other than fish, vegan. Although finding more balance will help going forward, he's still stuck with a bad back that got chronically over-exerted for its long-term tolerance.

[VictorN]

Hi James,

I'm doing alright for a guy my age, thanks. Lifting weights regularly since 17 helped. Although I've got my share of back injuries (some of them were nasty and haunted me for years), it's all over now.

As for protein powder, I have other reasons besides possible IGF-1 increase. For example, consuming concentrated protein goes against Nutritarian rule of having most nutrients for a calorie (and by nutrients I mean mostly phytonutrients). Also, I suspect eating protein powders would increase my basal metabolism (I might be wrong on it) and I'm trying to lower it, together with other markers: resting HR (still dropping, got 42-43 last week), BP, fasting glucose, core body temperature, etc. The idea is to slow down if not to naked mole rat level but as much as possible and preserve myself well into my nineties and beyond.

I strongly believe (although don't have a hard proof) that eating animal products, concentrated oils and proteins, and drinking alcohol and coffee speeds up metabolism and thus works against my goals. So my lifestyle is also a kind of long term investment, one which will show advantages few decades later.

[TheBrain]

When I was 7 or 8 years old, I stopped eating meat after I found out where it came from. My parents honored my wishes and didn't try to change my mind. But after about a month, I started eating meat again. I don't recall what changed my mind, but I would say that to this day, I wish I didn't need to eat meat. But I do. And I'm not going to say I don't enjoy it. But some inner conflict remains.

I follow the paleo autoimmune protocol (AIP) (now with a ketogenic twist). Evidently, some people with an autoimmune disease find that they can't get well on a vegan diet. Mickey Trescott is one person who immediately comes to mind (I follow her). She says a little bit about that here:

http://autoimmune-paleo.com/our-story/

But in my AIP reading and podcast listening, I've come across a lot of stories of people who were vegan, developed an autoimmune disease, and then could only get better when they started eating meat again. I'm not saying that being vegan causes an autoimmune disease, but perhaps in some people their genetics get in the way of them being able to not eat meat long-term.

I've been diagnosed with Hashimoto's, an autoimmune thyroid disorder. And I have a high risk for celiac disease with two copies of HLA DQ2, but I fortunately gave up gluten 10 years ago. My former gastroenterologist said either I'm in remission from celiac disease or I prevented it from developing by going gluten free (I like to think the latter).

I have SNPs related to other autoimmune diseases such as Crohn's, rheumatoid arthritis, and lupus, and one thing about autoimmunity is that if you get one autoimmune disease, you are at a greater risk of getting additional autoimmune diseases. So, despite my inner conflict, I will continue eating moderate amounts of meat.

I think it all boils down to bio-individuality.

[Julie G]

For example, consuming concentrated protein goes against Nutritarian rule of having most nutrients for a calorie (and by nutrients I mean mostly phytonutrients).

From listening to Dr. Furhman, I understood that eating only the foods with the highest nutrition phytonutrient density does not equate to good health, because doing so could result in a diet with skewed macronutrient ratios. His primary concern, in the lecture I saw, was that his ANDI rating scale could result diet too low in fat. I like that he acknowledges ideal macronutrient ratios will be highly individualistic.

I'm not debunking your approach, Victor. My diet is also heavily plant based (sans grains & legumes- due to sensitivities) but I wondered if you'd seen this interesting talk by Mat Lalonde (Harvard) debunking ANDI?

[VictorN]

For example, consuming concentrated protein goes against Nutritarian rule of having most nutrients for a calorie (and by nutrients I mean mostly phytonutrients).

From listening to Dr. Furhman, I understood that eating only the foods with the highest nutrition phytonutrient density does not equate to good health, because doing so could result in a diet with skewed macronutrient ratios. His primary concern, in the lecture I saw, was that his ANDI rating scale could result diet too low in fat. I like that he acknowledges ideal macronutrient ratios will be highly individualistic.

I'm not debunking your approach, Victor. My diet is also heavily plant based (sans grains & legumes- due to sensitivities) but I wondered if you'd seen this interesting talk by Mat Lalonde (Harvard) debunking ANDI?

Of course I'm not saying one should eat only kale and spinach just because they are most nutrient dense foods. If you read Dr. Fuhrman's "The End of Dieting", you would see him bashing raw, unsupplemented vegans as furiously as he bashes Paleo approach, using phrases like "wasted muscles, wasted health".

So it's not black and white simple, eat-only-highest-ANDI-score-food solution. It's scrupulously elaborated system, with emphasis on G-BOMBS accompanied with fruits, grains and proper supplementation. Again, that's why I don't like a word "vegan" - everybody claims "I tried everything; vegan? been there, done that - I was vegan for [so many] years." Devil is in the details, you know. I'm still sure most of you who claims to try "everything" would have different results if you openly-minded read "Super Immunity", "The End of Dieting", "The End of Diabetes" and "The End of Heart Disease" (all written by Dr. Fuhrman) and finally tried the 100% Nutritarian way.

But you won't, so let's agree to disagree here and go our separate ways.

[buck3Maureen]

Hi Victor, Just got back to this thread and wanted to thank you for the suggestions. I did start doing weight lifting (perfect workout - 30 min a week - slow - working each muscle group till it colapses) - I do eat a lot of seeds and I, like you, try to stuff myself at each meal- So I'm going to see how this goes and keep my mind open to changing the diet, if I keep loosing.

[Julie G]

I hope we don’t have to go our different ways, Victor . Apologies if I’ve offended you. I’m truly not trying to debunk your approach. With your genetics (and heeding the precautions I previously outlined) I think you've found what works for YOU- kudos. My approach is kinda similar but I wasn’t so lucky on my FADS 1 & 2 and need a little extra help with DHA & choline. As I repeatedly say, I suspect that no one-size-fits-all diet will work for all E4 carriers.

Thanks for further explaining your interpretation of Dr. Furhman’s approach. That makes much better sense, more in line with my understanding.

[ApropoE4]

If you told me that I would have an additional decade of healthy living in my 70s but in exchange I had to suffer a vegan diet, I would prefer the early demise.

That's my simple answer. ymmv.

[Stavia]

Lol Apropo. I'd take the vegan diet. I admire Victor's dedication to following his chosen path so carefully and well. I wish I had that amount of discipline.