Vitamin K2

Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, and other chronic diseases; biomarkers, lifestyle, supplements, drugs, and health care.
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Stavia
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Vitamin K2

Postby Stavia » Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:07 pm

How little is effective - does anyone know?
Reason is lifelong fit, lean, healthy hubby has seriously crappy coronary calcium score and is now on aspirin and higher dose statin. Before anyone jumps up and down about the statin this is secondary prevention. He already had a microvascular event some years ago with 4th nerve palsy. The statin is not negotiable and was started then. He was very slack taking it over the last year or so (mebbe once a week) so I forced him to have a CCS assuming it'd be low risk and he could stop the statin but its 82 centile.
So....he hates taking pills. He has enjoyed exceptionally good health his whole life. I make him take a single 30000U D3 (its what we use here, we usually need one a month but he needs 3) every 10 days that he needs to get a decent D3 blood level. Plus 10mg rosuvastatin plus aspirin. He is reluctantly taking coQq10 (I told him it helps for the leg aches, not a lie) and I luckily found a Thorne methylguard all-in-one that is keeping his homocysteine down to 8ish from 13 and he reluctantly takes it too. I dunno if I can get him to take another pill daily. Can I give him just a boost of K2 every 10 days with his D3?

We saw a useless cardiologist last week and I've got a second one booked in a month. But they are all mainstream here. I'm not even gonna mention the supplements. I just want an MR angiogram. Or a very good reason why it's not necessary.

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Re: Vitamin K2

Postby Silverlining » Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:42 am

Stavia, I agree on the angiogram...why in the world any insurance carrier would deny a patient with 82% calcium score is beyond me. My husband's brother who lives in Miami pays $1,500 every other year for an angiogram, which sounds like a reasonable price for his peace of mind...

Regarding the pills, prick the mk capsule and squeeze the contents on his meals! I really hope his next cardiologist appt is with a more discerning doctor... Love you S!

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Re: Vitamin K2

Postby hill dweller » Thu Jul 28, 2016 7:47 am

Does he (will he?) eat natto? My husband and I really enjoy natto, but it's expensive (at least $1 USD per tiny serving) and only available at Asian markets. That's the natural source of K2. It's just simpler to supplement.

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KatieS
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Re: Vitamin K2

Postby KatieS » Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:12 am

Stavia, we'll have to have the hubby conversation in Boulder! I would recommend the 200mg dose coQ10 daily with a high dose Omega 3 in addition to the daily K2. Amazon did not have any all- in- one pills. If the majority of the calcium was in the widowmaker (LAD) artery, this is worrisome. IMHO rosuvastatin has some rat studies touting it's anti-thrombic effects, which I think is major event contributor. My husband had a perfect advanced lipid panel six months prior while on Simvastatin 20mg and low-dose aspirin and had very little calcium in the coronaries. He refused all my supplements like fish oil, etc a few months prior to his event. If your husband has the family history and all the genetic markers like mine, aggressive intervention is warranted.

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Julie G
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Re: Vitamin K2

Postby Julie G » Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:26 am

(((Stavia & Hubby)))

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Re: Vitamin K2

Postby hstapell » Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:32 am

I don't know how to make a spouse take more pills, but here's more on K2 and heart disease...

From Stephan Guyenet:
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2 ... erial.html

From Chris Kresser:
https://chriskresser.com/can-vitamin-k2 ... r-disease/

Based on Kresser's recommendation, and on other reading, I've been experimenting with ~5 mg of K2 MK4 and MK7 combo (since my positive calcium scan).

Wishing the two of you the best...

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Re: Vitamin K2

Postby hstapell » Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:21 am

Oh, and I forgot to add this excellent article:
http://openheart.bmj.com/content/3/1/e000325.full
"Nutritional strategies for skeletal and cardiovascular health: hard bones, soft arteries, rather than vice versa"

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RichardS
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Re: Vitamin K2

Postby RichardS » Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:42 am

Stavia,

Sorry to hear of his troubles. I have to say, I've been down that road and followed Dr. William Davis' Track Your Plaque website for several years due to 90%ile+ calcium scores starting in my mid 40's (and osteopenia) before giving up on him when he decided wheat was the source of all evil in the world of health. I thought I was eating a good (low fat) diet and exercising reasonably so the high percentile really shocked me. Still, I learned a lot from Davis and the more informed participants on his forum.

I'll assume that increasing his D3 by sun is a limited source for improving the D status. The half-lives of K2 in the blood are nowhere near as long as vitamin D. I used to take a combo D3-K2 (MK4/K7) daily, but now only do it in the winter as I can keep my D3 in the 40's with my pale skin and abundant sun here in Southern California most of the year. I make my wife take the D3-K2 combo twice a week year-round since she gets so little sun and SAD levels of fiber. I get lots of green leafys and eat a high fiber diet to help feed the gut bugs that make K2, so I'm no longer taking a K2 supplement. A standard dose of K2 is 100mcg but there are dosages available in the 1000mcg range, and clinical trials in Japan have used 45mg/day for osteoporosis with, apparently, no adverse effects. Chris Masterjohn, who I consider really smart about fat soluble vitamins, would advocate for a balanced Vit A/D/K, preferably through organ meats and sun, but he recognizes one's D status and response to dietary/supplement intake is highly individual. I've heard Masterjohn also caution against monthly dosing of D3 in favor of more regular intake more like what we were designed for evolutionarily.

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Stavia
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Re: Vitamin K2

Postby Stavia » Thu Jul 28, 2016 12:12 pm

Silver, the cardiologist was very sure we were just the worried well and was dismissive. Dunno if me being a doctor made her oppositional. Queen Bee syndrome.

Hill - dunno how to get it here. Tablet easier yip.

Katie dunno if I can get him to take omega 3 as well but we eat salmon or fish at least twice a week and use zero industrial seed oil. And yes statins work thru stabilising the endothelium and other ways I agree. Yup its all in the LAD.

Thank you HS.

Richard yup sun not possible. Winter here is very long and summer too short and he is very fair and freckly and has already had one BCC. There is no evidence the big D3 doses intermittently are harmful and at least I'm getting it into him. Our country has just completed an enormous several years RCT monthly D3 trial and I hear thru the grapevine there were no adverse effect concerns. I personally don't do it that way but I think its the least of my concerns for him atm.

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Re: Vitamin K2

Postby RichardS » Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:09 pm

Stavia wrote: Our country has just completed an enormous several years RCT monthly D3 trial and I hear thru the grapevine there were no adverse effect concerns. I personally don't do it that way but I think its the least of my concerns for him atm.


Interesting to hear there are some hard data on this now.

Since the hubby avoids pills, I wonder if he is interested in regularly having dietary turmeric/black pepper to fight inflammation and cholesterol oxidation.

I get that "worried well" moniker - I'm feeling fine (no current cardiac symptoms - plus, also married to a physician) but have a nasty measure on the CAC scan.


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