Ketogenic Diets Aren't All About Carbs and Insulin

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apod
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Ketogenic Diets Aren't All About Carbs and Insulin

Postby apod » Sat Jul 30, 2016 5:57 pm

This was quite the biochem lesson, but offers some great insights:
http://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/07/2 ... d-insulin/

Did you know that adding MCT oil to your pasta is more ketogenic than restricting your carbohydrates to ten percent of calories?

Many people think of carbohydrate and insulin as central to ketogenesis, but the direct biochemical event that initiates ketone formation is actually the oversupply of acetyl groups to the TCA cycle during conditions of oxaloacetate depletion.

While largely a biochemistry lesson, in this video I also teach you the practical implications of this. There is more than one route to ketogenesis, and while they all produce ketones, they are fundamentally different in important ways.

Adding coconut, MCT oil, or exogenous ketones allows you to reap benefits of ketones without necessarily restricting carbohydrates and insulin, and that may be useful if you are also trying to reap some of the benefits of carbohydrate and insulin.

On the other hand, certain conditions that respond to ketogenic diets, for example refractory childhood epilepsy, need stronger degrees of ketogenesis than you can achieve simply by adding MCT oil to pasta.

Understanding the difference allows you to better make practical decisions about your diet that are most consistent with your priorities.

In this episode, you will find all of the following, and more:

An overview of the TCA cycle and burning carbohydrate for energy; the critical importance of oxaloacetate (OAA) to allow acetyl groups to enter the TCA cycle; how we burn fat on a mixed diet; the meaning of the phrase, "fat burns in the flame of carbohydrate" or “fat burns in a carbohydrate flame"; loss of lean muscle mass can occur if dietary carbohydrate and protein are too low to maintain OAA levels, and fat cannot spare this loss; under carbohydrate restriction, OAA is not repleted by carbohydrate and is used for gluconeogenesis, while more fatty acids reach the liver to make acteyl CoA; the oversupply of acetyl groups in excess of OAA initiates ketogenesis; insulin shifts fat to adipose tissue, but this doesn't cause obesity; MCTs go straight to the liver via the portal vein rather than going to the blood via the lymph in chylomicrons, and they thereby avoid that effect of insulin; insulin suppresses the carnitine shuttle; MCTs do not require the carnitine shuttle and are therefore immune to this effect of insulin; MCTs at breakfast suppress food intake at lunch; MCTs added to pasta increase beta-hydroxybutyrate; two ways of getting ketones: selective deprivation vs. abundance; if you are trying to get ketones but having negative effects of carbohydrate restriction you can add MCTs to get the ketones; comparison of beta-hydroxybutyrate from MCT vs. 10% carb vs. classical ketogenic diet.




I'm currently experimenting with 2-3TBS of C8 MCT/d with mixed meals and a moderately low-carb diet as opposed to a very low carb diet -- I'll give this a few months then check out advanced lipids and see what the effect is there. I'm curious to see if I can have my ketones and eat my fruit + veggies too. :geek:

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Re: Ketogenic Diets Aren't All About Carbs and Insulin

Postby aphorist » Sat Jul 30, 2016 7:38 pm

Good video. I need to spend more time on OAA.

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Re: Ketogenic Diets Aren't All About Carbs and Insulin

Postby Nancy » Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:28 pm

Interesting and impressive.
3,4

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Re: Ketogenic Diets Aren't All About Carbs and Insulin

Postby Stavia » Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:20 am

Need to watch this. Bookmarking.

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Re: Ketogenic Diets Aren't All About Carbs and Insulin

Postby progranulindefect » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:19 am

i have measured ketone production using ketostix while fasting and exercising and when using coconut oil. i have only seen measurable ketones while using coconut oil. i have no idea why.

update after watching part of the video. maybe i don't show ketones on my ketostix when i am fasting and exercising because i am using protein from muscle in the TCA cycle :shock: i don't know :? oops. i just remembered- when you are exercising while fasted, your body signals that protein is to be conserved. :geek: :| idk, again. then i may not show ketones on my ketostix when i am exercising fasted because all the ketones are being used. so this issue is very complex. we need some guideposts to show us that what we are doing is working. so far using coconut oil has only caused 4 pounds of weight gain. i can't point to any positive effect (like improving short term memory, decreasing hot flashes), although it didn't adversely impact my lipids.

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Re: Ketogenic Diets Aren't All About Carbs and Insulin

Postby RichardS » Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:59 am

I listened to this talk from his podcast. I probably should have switched to the video when I started getting lost in the biochemistry.

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Re: Ketogenic Diets Aren't All About Carbs and Insulin

Postby Stavia » Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:59 pm

ok guys this is extremely interesting and relevant to us. Obviously we have to optimize our insulin sensitivity but perhaps a middle ground that doesn't need super low carbs would be an alternative approach. Our brains may need ketones to bridge the mitochondrial gap, but they don't necessarily have to be produced by ultra low carb.

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Re: Ketogenic Diets Aren't All About Carbs and Insulin

Postby Julie G » Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:37 am

I've been swamped, but this is on my list to take in- looks really interesting. I completely agree that a ketogenic diet needn't be VLC. In fact VLC may have some disadvantages for our population in terms of both phyto and micronutrient deficiencies as well as being disadvantageous to our gut microbiome. I eat around 75 grams of carbs a day- primary above ground veg with a few sweet potato wedges. That adds up to about 10 cup of veg a day. By fasting, staying very slightly hypocaloric and exercising, l'm yielding a BHB between 0.5- 2.0. My experience indicates that a VLC diet is unnecessary to achieve a beneficial level of ketosis.

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Re: Ketogenic Diets Aren't All About Carbs and Insulin

Postby aphorist » Wed Aug 03, 2016 8:59 am

Juliegee wrote:I've been swamped, but this is on my list to take in- looks really interesting. I completely agree that a ketogenic diet needn't be VLC. In fact VLC may have some disadvantages for our population in terms of both phyto and micronutrient deficiencies as well as being disadvantageous to our gut microbiome. I eat around 75 grams of carbs a day- primary above ground veg with a few sweet potato wedges. That adds up to about 10 cup of veg a day. By fasting, staying very slightly hypocaloric and exercising, l'm yielding a BHB between 0.5- 2.0. My experience indicates that a VLC diet is unnecessary to achieve a beneficial level of ketosis.


Sorry if you have posted this elsewhere, but what are your dietary sources of fat?

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Julie G
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Re: Ketogenic Diets Aren't All About Carbs and Insulin

Postby Julie G » Wed Aug 03, 2016 9:16 am

Nuts, seeds, avocados, olives, fatty fish, high polyphenol EVOO.


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