Describe your ideal MCT formulation

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apod
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Re: Describe your ideal MCT formulation

Postby apod » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:15 pm

Juliegee wrote:Huge thanks for your detailed input here, apod. To clarify, you've never checked lipids before/after C8 to test Dr. Gundy's theory? Has anyone? You're clearly using MCT as a nootropic, to optimize already healthy cognition. I'd love to hear from anyone who's using it to address or prevent cognitive decline. I'm especially curious about dosage and preference for either liquid or capsules. Feel free to PM me if you'd prefer. Apod, I'm stunned by the mega-doses you're using :shock:. I suspect I might levitate on 30 grams. I've shared this story before, but I naively took 1 tbs of liquid MCT when I first began using it. Almost immediately, I grew very warm, sweaty, and began trembling. I had an excess of energy like nothing I'd ever experienced before or since. I think Lucy (?) once very aptly described MCT as "rocket fuel." Amen. It's interesting to see how many of us women (especially) react strongly to high doses.


Here's the back of the bottle:
http://www.bulletproof.com/brain-octane-oil-16-oz

"Gradually increase the amount each day as desired to reach 1-2 tbsp per cup." -- 2tbs is 28 grams. Lately, I often do ~ 2x 10oz cups of coffee a day. That 1-2tbsp per serving ~1-2x a day feels about right for me. Every now and then, I get that rocketfuel feeling, but often it's just a subtle nudge of energy or unnoticeable (I might as well be eating olive oil.) The subtleness is actually what keeps me from eating it more often, because I figure it probably has an effect on lipids similar to other SFA, and it totally makes my coffee taste like greasy MCT oil. I figure I might as well just eat MUFA most of the time. It is pretty awesome on beans, rice, and sweet potatoes as a sort of butter substitute. Coming from the 15-30g dose range, I haven't bothered with 500-1,000mg sized capsules. At the upper range this can get me up to ~1.5mmol/L BHB for a few hours over a non-ketogenic diet. At a smaller dose, it might get me up to around 0.5mmol. I've never checked to see where I end up while in deeper nutritional ketosis.

I've had some pretty awesome workouts using a few TBS of MCT beforehand (I believe you can stack on something like BCAAs + SuperStarch + creatine and you're just flooded with ketones, MCTs, FFAs, aminos, creatine, and glucose to burn somewhat concurrently.) But as a non-athlete, this just equates to a needless extra amount of energy being semi-wasted and I have no idea what that does under the hood chronically / metabolically.

Idea -- Olive Oil Polyphenol infused MCT. MCTOO.

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Re: Describe your ideal MCT formulation

Postby circular » Wed Jan 18, 2017 4:47 pm

Liquid avoids problems for people who have trouble swallowing pills. I only have trouble with very large capsules, tables or gel caps.

[Edit: Indeed I have problems swallowing large tables! :lol: ]
Last edited by circular on Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.

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Re: Describe your ideal MCT formulation

Postby slacker » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:45 pm

Juliegee wrote:Re. IR labs: fasting glucose, insulin, A1c. For the whole MetS picture, I also like to include BMI, waist circumference, BP, lipids (esp. TG/HDL ratio.) How do you define, Slacker?


I'm not sure there is a clear answer. Which lipid markers are you referring to? Other than TG/HDL ratio, probably not part of a standard lipid panel. Do lipidologists agree on which lipid markers point to IR? Do all the markers, lipid and otherwise, have to be normal or optimum to determine lack of IR? Diabetes is obvious, "metabolic syndrome" is obvious, IR is a bit more subtle. And Chris' question about the NMR Lipoprofile Lp-IR score is a great one (to which I do not have an answer). My NMR report from Labcorp doesn't even have a normal range documented for it. And normal range doesn't imply optimum.

And seared into my mind is a statement from a presentation by Rand Akasheh (PhD Dietician?) at the Ancestral Meetup in 2016 (Stavia's summary of talk): It is critical to realize brain insulin resistance can occur in the absence of peripheral insulin resistance, obesity and diabetes.

So what is "good enough?" This is not an intellectual pin-head question. It has impact on each and every one of us (with some notable exceptions). And like so much of what we as a group grapple with, I don't think there is a clear consensus.
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Re: Describe your ideal MCT formulation

Postby Julie G » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:35 pm

Which lipid markers are you referring to? Other than TG/HDL ratio, probably not part of a standard lipid panel.

True, but isn't the TG/HDL ratio a great (inexpensive) window to particle size? Smaller particles certainly equate to a much greater chance of IR per the LPIR equation. Simple dyslipidema; high TGs, low HDL is also a good indicator.
And Chris' question about the NMR Lipoprofile Lp-IR score is a great one (to which I do not have an answer). My NMR report from Labcorp doesn't even have a normal range documented for it. And normal range doesn't imply optimum.

Before LabCorp bought LipoScience, NMR results used to come with this very helpful interpretive graphic that I've bookmarked and still use as a reference. The results also used to be reported as a specific numeric score rather than broken into quadrants. Now, to get a specific score, LabCorp is charging an additional fee rendering the general test much less sensitive and helpful. I've been following the evidence as it relates to the usefulness of LPIR as a biomarker of impending IR, it's pretty impressive.

Lipoprotein Insulin Resistance Index: A Lipoprotein Particle–Derived Measure of Insulin Resistance
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10 ... .2014.0050
Results: LP-IR exhibited stronger associations with HOMA-IR (r=0.51) and GDR (r=−0.53) than each of the individual lipoprotein parameters as well as the triglycerides/high-density lipoprotein cholesterol (TGs/HDL-C) ratio (r=0.41 and −0.44, respectively). In MESA, associations between the LP-IR score and HOMA-IR were strong in men (r=0.51), women (r=0.52), European Americans (r=0.58), African Americans (r=0.48), Chinese Americans (r=0.49), and Hispanic Americans (r=0.45). When LP-IR was categorized by HOMA-IR and either body mass index (BMI) or fasting plasma glucose (FPG), subgroups were revealed whose LP-IR scores were high (≥50), despite having normal BMIs (<24 kg/m2) or FPG (<100 mg/dL).

Conclusions: LP-IR scores had strong associations with multiple measures, HOMA-IR, and GDR, the former being more reflective of hepatic and the latter of peripheral insulin sensitivity, and may represent a simple means to identify individuals with IR.

I completely agree with your statement below referring to the possible divergence between central and peripheral IR. I also recall Dr. Bredesen sharing the neural exosome work of Ed Goetzl in which he found everyone with AD to have central IR regardless of peripheral markers.
And seared into my mind is a statement from a presentation by Rand Akasheh (PhD Dietician?) at the Ancestral Meetup in 2016 (Stavia's summary of talk): It is critical to realize brain insulin resistance can occur in the absence of peripheral insulin resistance, obesity and diabetes.

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Re: Describe your ideal MCT formulation

Postby hill dweller » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:26 am

Julie asked about dosage and why: I take one to two tablespoons per day, first thing in the morning, usually in my first cup of coffee. I bought the vanilla-hazelnut flavor by mistake, and for me, that taste ruins coffee, so I'm just shooting that stuff down until the bottle is finished. :lol:

I feel a tremendous boost of mental energy from the MCT oil, so that's the motivation. It doesn't make me jittery, as some have said. Gastric distress can be a problem, so I would recommend beginning with a small dose and gently increasing the amount.

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Re: Describe your ideal MCT formulation

Postby circular » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:41 am

OH! If they could come up with a formula that gets rid of the gastric distress some of us always have (no matter the dose), that would be great! I'm not sure what causes it, and whether it means I should avoid it due to some bad reaction I have, or whether it's just how I process it. I had read an explanation of the latter, I think having to due with enzymes, but I didn't save it. :cry: A solution like this would be huge for some of us.

A quick Google brings up a website suggesting a couple rather opposing notions for the ongoing side effects, but they're not sourced. I'll leave that to those contemplating formulas:
As the body adapts, it is thought that new enzymes are generated to help process the increased medium-chain triglyceride intake.

If this is the case, maybe some of us need those enzymes in the formula.
It has been speculated that the shorter the chain of the MCT (e.g. C6), the more gastric distress a person is likely to experience due to the speed of processing.

If this is the case maybe something to slow the speed of processing?
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.

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Re: Describe your ideal MCT formulation

Postby slacker » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:39 pm

Juliegee wrote:I've been following the evidence as it relates to the usefulness of LPIR as a biomarker of impending IR, it's pretty impressive...

Conclusions: LP-IR scores had strong associations with multiple measures, HOMA-IR, and GDR, the former being more reflective of hepatic and the latter of peripheral insulin sensitivity, and may represent a simple means to identify individuals with IR.


Thanks for these links JulieGee. I'm not statistician, and admit to no experience looking at scatter charts. The LP-IR to GDR scatter chart has a nice line that shows strong association, but the data points look really scattered to me, not nicely clustered around the line. Do we have an expert in the house??
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Re: Describe your ideal MCT formulation

Postby Julie G » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:35 pm

Good point, Slacker. I also look forward to hearing from our statisticians. Thanks to all who've contributed to this thread. Please feel free to add additional comments. I'll be passing a direct link to this thread onto the supplement manufacturer tomorrow.

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Re: Describe your ideal MCT formulation

Postby Anab » Thu Sep 28, 2017 9:53 pm

Julie G wrote:I've recently been approached by a science-based supplement company catering to practitioners and their patients asking for input from our community on developing a new MCT formulation. I know that Dr. Gundry has begun advising E4 carriers to use primarily caprylic acid/C8 because it has a more positive effect on lipids. Has anyone tested that theory? Do you prefer liquid to capsules? What dosage do you use? Why are you using MCT?

FWIW, I don't use MCT on a regular basis now because I'm no longer IR. When I travel and can't find (quality) food, I do find a 1,000 mg capsule easily helps me get into ketosis so I can just fast instead. Please share your experience.





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Re: Describe your ideal MCT formulation

Postby floramaria » Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:15 am

I am using 1Tbsp per day of Sports Research MCT oil. C8 4800mg, C10 3,5000mg , C12 4,000 mg.
Began adding that to morning coffee, along with some ghee about 6 weeks ago. I have still not started using my ketone meter
(maybe I'll finally read all the instructions today). Hoping MCT will help me into ketosis and then help me maintain it. It does, without any doubt, help me extend the time before I eat my first meal. No ill effect from it. Rather I love the energy boost which is significant but smooth. Reading Volek and Phinney Low Carb Living and wonder if it will prove true for me that eating more saturated fats will not negatively impact my lipids. Though I haven't been using MCT long enough to experiment with any difference between when it is included in diet and when its not, I find that the HFLC diet in general works well for me. That said, one of the reasons I use MCT oil, and might continue to use, is just to boost my overall daily fat intake.

Preferences: Liquid. Unflavored. For me unflavored is more versatile. if I want a flavor, I prefer adding it myself. Agree that a dark glass bottle would be a plus.
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