Exercise, muscles, mTOR, IGF-1, brain health, and cancer

Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, and other chronic diseases; biomarkers, lifestyle, supplements, drugs, and health care.
User avatar
Tincup
Mod
Mod
Posts: 3558
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:57 pm
Location: Front Range, CO

Re: Exercise, muscles, mTOR, IGF-1, brain health, and cancer

Post by Tincup »

I use my nose as a governor. In other words, everything I do, I breathe only through my nose. This includes HIIT Tabatas, sprints, skiing off piste' on the steeps at 12,000', TRX suspension trainer body weight military fitness training exercises, jumping rope & etc. I'm never out of breath or breathing hard (and my heart rate doesn't get too high). This is based on the Bohr effect. This means that oxygen binds very tightly to hemoglobin. When serum CO2 increases and conversely the serum pH decreases, this binding decreases (see Oxygen–hemoglobin dissociation curve). Hence the cells actually get more access to oxygen when you breathe less and increase your serum CO2 levels. The "need for air" feeling is primarily driven by the CO2 sensor in your breathing system, not the O2 sensor (this can activate, but you need rather low levels of O2 for this to happen). There are training methods where you can "reprogram" your CO2 sensor to accept higher serum CO2 levels. Think free divers as an endpoint. Do not do breath hold training in water as you can get shallow water blackout and drown.

Patrick McKeown has written about this and has many YouTube videos. Likewise, Dr. Artour Rakhimov has written about this, too. His extensive website. Russian engineer Vladimir Frolov developed a rebreathing device trainer that increases the CO2 level on the in breath. It can also be used to retrain the CO2 sensor in the breathing center. This device can be purchased off eBay for under $30US and is shipped from the Russian Federation. I've enhanced the effect of mine by cutting a 2 liter plastic bottle almost in half, putting the device in the bottle and resealing with duct tape. This will increase the CO2 concentration in the inhaled air. These FAQ's are from a Russian vendor.

One way to test is to determine what is called variously a control pause (CP) or BOLT score. A time of 5 seconds is bad and a time of 60 seconds is wonderful. The idea is to be relaxed and taking small breaths in and out. On an out breath, you hold your breath out until you feel a slight need to breath. Then you start breathing again. The duration is your score. If you have to breathe in deeply, you've held your breath too long. The volume of breathing before and after the hold should be the same. This is not a maximal breath hold.
Tincup
E3,E4
xactly
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:37 am

Re: Exercise, muscles, mTOR, IGF-1, brain health, and cancer

Post by xactly »

Tincup: Very cool! Several of my CrossFit coaches have stressed breathing only through the nose. When I talked with one about running pace, he said "try to run at a pace that will still allow you to breathe through your nose."

I think there are also some cells in the sinus cavity that pick up nitric oxide (NOS) on an inhale. NOS relaxes smooth muscle cells which leads to blood vessel dilation, a useful physiologic response during exercise. Breathing through the mouth bypasses these sensors, so you lose the benefit.

My coaches have been okay with exhaling through the mouth, though. When I feel the desire to mouth-breathe (from CO2 build up), I usually blow out through the mouth, then quickly inhale through the nose. For example, on a C2 rower, I will breathe through the nose on the forward part of the stroke, then exhale through the mouth on the pull. I'm curious if you have any thoughts on exhaling through the mouth as a quick way of dumping CO2. In these cases, the exhale is forceful, so the out-breath is significantly shorter in duration than the in-breath.
Last edited by xactly on Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Tincup
Mod
Mod
Posts: 3558
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:57 pm
Location: Front Range, CO

Re: Exercise, muscles, mTOR, IGF-1, brain health, and cancer

Post by Tincup »

xactly wrote:Tincup: Very cool! Several of my CrossFit coaches have stressed breathing only through the nose. When I talked with one about running pace, he said "never outpace your ability to breathe through your nose."

I think there are also some cells in the sinus cavity that pick up nitric oxide (NOS) on an inhale. NOS relaxes smooth muscle cells which leads to blood vessel dilation, a useful physiologic response during exercise. Breathing through the mouth bypasses these sensors, so you lose the benefit.
"The vasodilator gas nitric oxide (NO) is produced in the paranasal sinuses and is excreted continuously into the nasal airways of humans. This NO will normally reach the lungs with inspiration, especially during nasal breathing." https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8971255
xactly wrote:My coaches have been okay with exhaling through the mouth, though. When I feel the desire to mouth-breathe (from CO2 build up), I usually blow out through the mouth, then quickly inhale through the nose. For example, on a C2 rower, I will breathe through the nose on the forward part of the stroke, then exhale through the mouth on the pull. I'm curious if you have any thoughts on exhaling through the mouth as a quick way of dumping CO2. In these cases, the exhale is forceful, so the out-breath is significantly shorter in duration than the in-breath.
The point is not to dump CO2, but to increase the breathing center's tolerance of serum CO2. If your CP/BOLT score is > 40 seconds (see above) then possibly at the end of an exercise, but generally no. See Patrick McKeown's book link in my post above also his site here.

Because of the Bohr effect, as I linkedhere, when you have a higher level of serum CO2, your cells have more oxygen to work with. This has been correlated with lower rates of a variety of illness. In the land of little internet bandwidth at the present or I'd link more references.
Tincup
E3,E4
xactly
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 127
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:37 am

Re: Exercise, muscles, mTOR, IGF-1, brain health, and cancer

Post by xactly »

Tincup: I'll read Patrick McKeown's book. I think it will benefit me to increase my breathing center's tolerance of serum CO2. I have always felt like my need for oxygen ramps up faster and to a greater degree than others I'm working out with.
ChipW
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 45
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:23 pm

Re: Exercise, muscles, mTOR, IGF-1, brain health, and cancer

Post by ChipW »

I believe it was Dan Empfield, long time iron man triathlete, that said obsessive endurance training and racing is not only unhealthy, it's one of the worst things you can do for your overall health. Now, hes talking about folks who do 6 or more iron man races a year and train like a full time job. Very few really know what over training looks like. I think crossfit is awesome

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
bexnews
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:58 am

Re: Exercise, muscles, mTOR, IGF-1, brain health, and cancer

Post by bexnews »

TheresaB wrote: What I was unsure about was if the high IGF-1 was the result of gym time, or if body builders induce a high IGF-1 through diet to develop muscle growth.


Did you ever truly settle this question? I was intrigued by a recent Ben Greenfield podcast where had had on an exercise equipment maker who showed that variable resistance, like using an exercise band - greatly increased muscle gains - like 2-3x. I am wondering if this is almost too much growth!?

Two studies provided by the manufacturer. Note there does seem to be increased growth hormone - is this IGF1 and should it be possibly avoided or at least some caution should be taken?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18550975

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20473217
User avatar
Tincup
Mod
Mod
Posts: 3558
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:57 pm
Location: Front Range, CO

Re: Exercise, muscles, mTOR, IGF-1, brain health, and cancer

Post by Tincup »

bexnews wrote: I was intrigued by a recent Ben Greenfield podcast where had had on an exercise equipment maker who showed that variable resistance, like using an exercise band - greatly increased muscle gains - like 2-3x. I am wondering if this is almost too much growth!?
I just got one of those band kits. Haven't played with it much yet. I still wonder about the 6 day/week protocol. If you truly do it to full failure, then you've exhausted the Type IIb muslce fibers, which take a week or more to recover (depending on the amount of inroading). I'm operating under the assumption that chronically elevated IGF-1 & mTOR, like from over feeding is bad, but periodic elevation from either exercise or food may not be. No data on this, however , at least with food, this is what Valter Longo posits with periodic fasting mimicking diet (FMD) episodes. As I recall, the people in one of these studies had an average of 195 for IGF-1 and it dropped by ~25% during the FMD. Of course the half life of serum IGF-1 is ~12 hours. I've discussed this with Gundry, who is on the low IGF-1 bandwagon. He said he sees it correlate with other markers, like A1C. I reminded him of the short half life. He didn't give me a satisfactory answer, except thats what he sees (which would make sense if the person is always doing the same thing.
Tincup
E3,E4
bexnews
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:58 am

Re: Exercise, muscles, mTOR, IGF-1, brain health, and cancer

Post by bexnews »

Tincup wrote:
bexnews wrote: I was intrigued by a recent Ben Greenfield podcast where had had on an exercise equipment maker who showed that variable resistance, like using an exercise band - greatly increased muscle gains - like 2-3x. I am wondering if this is almost too much growth!?
I just got one of those band kits. Haven't played with it much yet. I still wonder about the 6 day/week protocol. If you truly do it to full failure, then you've exhausted the Type IIb muslce fibers, which take a week or more to recover (depending on the amount of inroading). I'm operating under the assumption that chronically elevated IGF-1 & mTOR, like from over feeding is bad, but periodic elevation from either exercise or food may not be. No data on this, however , at least with food, this is what Valter Longo posits with periodic fasting mimicking diet (FMD) episodes. As I recall, the people in one of these studies had an average of 195 for IGF-1 and it dropped by ~25% during the FMD. Of course the half life of serum IGF-1 is ~12 hours. I've discussed this with Gundry, who is on the low IGF-1 bandwagon. He said he sees it correlate with other markers, like A1C. I reminded him of the short half life. He didn't give me a satisfactory answer, except thats what he sees (which would make sense if the person is always doing the same thing.
Ah neat to hear you are listening to some of the same stuff I am. Your concerns mirror mine. I am also wondering if there is value on trying to hit slow and fast twitch fibers with strength training. I have been doing a form of the "Neuromass" program that was used in-part by Alex Fergus training to win the PaleoFX Realfit competition 2 years in a row - basically just once a week doing an intense workout consisting of very slow "grinds", followed by power/dynamic moves and finally isometrics, with minimal rest in between sets but lots of recovery time all week. Aside from these fancy $$$ new machines that vary loads based on electronic sensors and interface to training computers, I am wondering if a Neuromass-like approach might be ideal. Trying to determine if the high quality bands may be a safer & simpler way to do this than with weights/barbells. I have also incorporated rebounding and the Mercola/Bush Nitric Oxide dump. Considering incorporating blood flow restriction too, as it saves the joints. Maybe rotating in and out of training every few weeks. My time is very limited right now so these methods all allow me to get quick workouts in without leaving the house. Anyway that's my current ponderings on this topic...

https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/neuro-m ... gth-health
User avatar
Tincup
Mod
Mod
Posts: 3558
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:57 pm
Location: Front Range, CO

Re: Exercise, muscles, mTOR, IGF-1, brain health, and cancer

Post by Tincup »

bexnews wrote:
Ah neat to hear you are listening to some of the same stuff I am. Your concerns mirror mine. I am also wondering if there is value on trying to hit slow and fast twitch fibers with strength training. I have been doing a form of the "Neuromass" program that was used in-part by Alex Fergus training to win the PaleoFX Realfit competition 2 years in a row - basically just once a week doing an intense workout consisting of very slow "grinds", followed by power/dynamic moves and finally isometrics, with minimal rest in between sets but lots of recovery time all week. Aside from these fancy $$$ new machines that vary loads based on electronic sensors and interface to training computers, I am wondering if a Neuromass-like approach might be ideal. Trying to determine if the high quality bands may be a safer & simpler way to do this than with weights/barbells. I have also incorporated rebounding and the Mercola/Bush Nitric Oxide dump. Considering incorporating blood flow restriction too, as it saves the joints. Maybe rotating in and out of training every few weeks. My time is very limited right now so these methods all allow me to get quick workouts in without leaving the house. Anyway that's my current ponderings on this topic...

https://www.alexfergus.com/blog/neuro-m ... gth-health
Yep, I've done the super slow to failure/Body by Science approach probably about 2x/month for quite a few years. I do that basic workout and follow it with a Tabata 8x20:10 set on the Concept2 fan rower, which is interesting after you've failed your big muscle groups. I also use a TRX and their Military Fitness Protocol, but basically don't do anything else intentionally to failure because of the Type IIb recovery issue.

You can do all of the above with isometrics, it is just harder to quantify what you are doing, unless you have one of those fancy $$$$ pressure cell devices. The thing I like about the super slow approach is you are very unlikely to injure yourself. Same with isometrics.

Doug McGuff demoing his approach with isometrics "timed static contractions" and a book on timed static contractions.
Tincup
E3,E4
bexnews
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 51
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:58 am

Re: Exercise, muscles, mTOR, IGF-1, brain health, and cancer

Post by bexnews »

Well Tincup - do update us if you try the band workout and find that you are not getting sufficient recovery & if/how you have modified the program to better suit your needs? Thanks!
Post Reply