Exercise, muscles, mTOR, IGF-1, brain health, and cancer

[RJones]

I'm biased. I do Crossfit and believe I have gotten great benefit from it.

Someone named "Camron" gives a pretty thorough takedown review on Amazon. In short, whenever Gundry cites the literature, it's misleading. For example, rather than cite a refereed article in a decent journal, he'll cite a poster presentation at a conference, which gets no peer review. In general it's worth taking a scan at the 1-star reviews.

https://www.amazon.com/Plant-Paradox-Da ... filter-bar

[jcomrie]

[quote="Tincup"][quote="jcomrie"]

On labs, I can't say what is optimal. We've posted our labs, links are here. We had labs drawn on 22 Jan and will post the results sometime after we transcribe our call with Dr. Gundry on Thursday (he added another laboratory for us, so we are now using 4 different laboratories).

Tincup: Thank you for your response and access to your labs which are very interesting. I have contacted Julie and made a small donation. Hopefully over time, I can figure out a way to make a larger contribution to the group either with money or time or both. By the way I too have been doing a 5 day fasting regimen 5 out of every 7 days, but only to speed up my recovery to normal. When I get there I had thought I might try 5 continuous days one week per month in addition to something like 42 hours a week in other weeks. I am familiar I think with the logic of 5 days. What is the logic for doing 5 days every 14 if you are otherwise happy with where you are at?

jcomrie

[Tincup]

What is the logic for doing 5 days every 14 if you are otherwise happy with where you are at?

I was looking for increased autophagy, apoptosis and mitosis. Also looking to see if I could stimulate stem cells as per Valter Longo's mice. Not sure 5 days is long enough. A mouse fasted for 2 days can lose 20% of his body weight and can't survive much longer fasting. A human can fast for 4 weeks and lose maybe 15% of his bodyweight. One of the cancer researchers I am working with for a family member with a glio has done 60 days and may be going for 90. Not saying anybody else should do this or that it is optimal.

In a super slow to failure workout, I have been able to increase my leg press weight from 245 to 350# since June. Upper body strength increases aren't as dramatic, though I keep increasing the load or time under load. I likewise had a skiing injury to my shoulder 2 years ago. Did a double eject at 40 MPH (poor viz - my bad judgement). Then re injured it a year ago Dec. It is just now getting back to pretty normal. Things like inverted push ups are still very hard. I've done these workouts typically 5 days fasted, but have noticed no real difference in performance when I've eaten the night before.

On Crossfit, I'm guessing Gundry thinks that many push it to the point of near Rhabdomyolysis (which is likely an incorrect assumption). My son and his fiance' are both big Crossfitters (she's got an MS in phisiology and is a university researcher as well as a sub 3.5 hour Boston competitor). They point out that it really depends on the gym and the coach(es). Gundry has told us he's seen many who are over eager (not just Crossfitters) come in with elevated Tropoinin-I.

Subsequent to coming down with afib in 2004 at 49, from chronic fitness, I have a subjective line I try not to cross in the "too much" category. I do well enough hewing this (and supplementing with magnesium to bowel tolerance) that I've only averaged about 1 afib event a year during the last 5 years, each lasting about an hour (this is after having a 2.5 month episode within the first 4 months of diagnosis). My ApoE4 brothers and sisters from here that I've met with in person would likely tell you I push the envelope. However I don't cross my own subjective line, while remaining fit. My most recent Troponin-I was 1.5 (goal <3.8).

[Magda]

Great post!
I think those terms can be very confusing to people. I appreciate your explanation. I am forwarding your message about Cardiac Troponin-I marker to all Crossfit lovers I know.

[Tincup]

This was from a consult a year ago - can be found linked here, all transcripts linked here (again, I'm sure it depends on the person, the gym and the coach):

45:10
Dr G: Okay, good, so we’ve got time for questions.
G: Great, already, (reading) So in your presentation at the Ancestral Health Symposium [Aug 2016], you discussed a 4/4 patient who likes burgers, cheese and Cross Fit and you said the last thing ApoE4 should be doing is Cross Fit, could you elaborate? What exercise is best for us?
45:28
Dr G: So almost every patient who is a big time Cross Fitter that I see has positive Cardiac Troponin-I elevation. [The Cardiac Troponin-I test is a hundred times more sensitive than the test used in an emergency room looking for heart attacks.]
G: That’s not us
45:46
Dr G: That’s not you. When we have them back off from that exercise their Cardiac Triponons go back down to normal.
T: Because like I said, I’ve adopted a strength training program, and I...but those words kept resonating in my brain
46:08
Dr G: (over talk) That’s different than Cross-Fit
T: Pardon?
46:12
Dr G: That’s very different than Cross-Fit. Cross-Fit is not a strength training program. Cross-Fit is try to damage your heart as much as you can.
T: (laughter) I’m not trying to do that.
46:29
Dr G: Yeah one of the things you have to keep in the back of your mind is we know that you guys [ApoE4s] have the potential to develop small vessel disease because your cholesterol is more active, if you will. And small vessels occur in the brain, and small vessels occur in the heart, and small vessels occur elsewhere. So what I don’t want to see happen is people kill their heart muscle unnecessarily. Marathoners do this. I have an avid hiker here in Palm Springs who kills his heart every hiking season. I go, “Stop doing that, please!” He says, “Well, I love it. It gives
me a high.” I said, “Yeah, but it’s also killing your heart.” So....Okay?
T: Okay
47:34
Dr G: So that’s why I said that.
G: Like, for example, I, periodically I do high intensity, like a Tabata work out on a fan bike that only lasts 4 minutes.
47:50
Dr G: Yeah, those are great.
G&T: Okay
G: I also ski like a banshee some days.
47:58
Dr G: Well, if you’re a good skier, that actually is not extreme exercise. My wife is a great skier and I’m a horrible skier. We’ll do the same slope and you know I’m huffing and puffing to keep up with her, and I’m miserable, she’s saying, hey, you know that was fun! I’m like, what are you talking about!

[reluctantexan]

I'm very new here and a total newbie regarding AD. Put myself forward for a new Study and was accepted, initial appointment done, next one coming up the 30th. I'm totally asymptomatic, so it's hard for me to get my head around, yet here I am. Although I've been tested twice, nobody plans to share my apoE4 status with me so I ordered the 23andme kit. I'll know more later,

One resource I've been studying is the Bredesen Protocol. This is my backup plan for when I ditch the Study, by which time I'll know whether I have amyloid plaque. Already fulfill many of the parts of the Protocol. See my repost beneath:

How did I come here? Looking for alternatives to the drug in the AD Study I'm about to test into.

I've been accepted into an AD Study, GeneMatch knows my apoe4 status, but I do not. It is a Phase 2b/3 Randomized, Double-blind, Placebo-Controlled, Parallel Group, Multi-Center Study. Screening begins next week and can last as long as 90 days. I can withdraw at any time.

I'm 73, walk 3 miles every morning before dawn, eat LCHF and practice IF. I'm rarely out of ketosis. My weight and body fat are normal, as is my A1C. I have no diagnosed disease and take 1mg estradiol daily as my only prescription.

I'll admit to being surprised that I'm included in this Study, but if I do, indeed, have AD, I will be needing SOMETHING.

So very grateful this forum is available, and I will follow up here when I get my test results.

[xactly]

This is a fascinating thread, but it leaves me with lots of questions. I am 66 and have been doing CrossFit for about five years. The typical CrossFit workout is 15 to 20 minutes of warming up, some type of strength exercise, then what is called a metabolic conditioning (Metcon) session, which is normally 5 to 20 minutes of high intensity exercise that can be a combination of bodyweight and/or strength exercises. The Metcon session is what stresses the heart and lungs.

Bredesen recommends high-intensity interval training, and from what I read above lifting weights is a good thing. Is Gundry saying the length and intensity of the Metcon session is too long? What exactly does Bredesen mean, then, when he says "high-intensity interval training" is good for you?

I don't think I had Cardiac Tropinin-1 measured during my last tests, but I'm making note of that. I know there's a tradeoff between IGF1 and muscle mass, and that low muscle mass is also a threat to a long and healthy life. I have listened to several conversations with Peter Attia, Rhonda Patrick and others where they discuss the tradeoff between IGF1 and muscle mass.

I'm happy to modify my exercise program once I understand what the evidence supports. So far, I've been happy with what I'm doing. At 66, I have a resting heart rate of 48, my blood pressure runs around 110/70, I don't take/need any medications, and I can functionally do pretty much anything I want. I am, however, aware of the toll on the heart that distance running takes, which is another reason I opted for short-duration intense training like CrossFit.

If someone can find out from Gundry what he specifically objects to in CrossFit programming, I would love to know. I would also love to know specifically what exercise he and Bredesen recommend as "high-intensity interval training" that is good for the brain, preserves muscle mass and body function, and minimizes damage to the heart.

[apod]

If someone can find out from Gundry what he specifically objects to in CrossFit programming, I would love to know. I would also love to know specifically what exercise he and Bredesen recommend as "high-intensity interval training" that is good for the brain, preserves muscle mass and body function, and minimizes damage to the heart.

I would love to hear more about this too, I would guess that it could be quantified with a HR strap -- something to the tune of no more than 2m >95% max, 5m >90%, 20m >80%, 30m >75%. 60m > 70%... and limit a session to 1hr?

Lately, I've been playing with these mile runs. It's only maybe 7 or 8 minutes of exercise, but it's pretty intense for me and maybe past the beneficial zone of a high intensity sprint or set of intervals.

[Stavia]

Xactly, great questions and Apod, great answer.
I do Crossfit as I said above. Firstly I can see no logical reason why the stretching and strength portions can be harmful. They are taken at a very easy pace with 2 mins rest between sets. The strength is very similar to what Tincup does for instance, but I do not go to failure as I consider it a risk for injury. The "WOD" ( workout of the day) day conditioning takes me about 20 mins. I work at a brisk pace for a burst, them rest, then go again and aim for good form rather than speed. My heart rate probably goes from 120 to 160 and down again multiple times. Surely no different for my heart from Julie Gee's walk-run-walk-run. Its totally illogical to me to demonise Crossfit.

A good trainer will always encourage slowing down and improving technique. I also cannot see how on earth a paced and scaled WOD can be harmful. It IS basically intervals.
Perhaps those who dont actually know what a Crossfit workout is, are biased without detailed knowledge?

PS. I managed to "kip" yesterday for the first time. Hanging from arms and swinging back n forth. Not bad for 57!! This muscle strength can only be good surely....

[xactly]

Stavia and apod: Thanks for your posts. Perhaps Dr. Gundry has seen patients who have taken CrossFit to extremes, doing workouts equivalent to running marathons. I pace my WODs the way you do, Stavia. The coaches I’ve worked with have all said you should time cap (limit) a WOD to 40 minutes. I do that for all longer WODs except Murph, which I only do once a year on the US’s Memorial Day holiday. (Murph still takes me an hour, dang it. )

Congrats on kipping, Stavia! I’m chasing the elusive double under...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk