Herpes viruses and dementia: knocking down viral load via serotonin manipulation

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Gilgamesh
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Herpes viruses and dementia: knocking down viral load via serotonin manipulation

Post by Gilgamesh »

Hey everyone,

Most of us are aware of the links between a couple of the herpes viruses (HSV1, CMV) and Alzheimer's, but it's not a stretch to hypothesize that all eight of the so far discovered herpes viruses can increase risk of Alzheimer's or other forms of dementia. Each has a different preferred cellular target, but given the similarity of the surface "look" (to a hungry virus) of various immune system cells and nervous system cells, and, in addition, given the connection itself between the nervous system and the immune system, it seems like a good idea to keep background levels of whatever herpes viruses we have (and we all have at least few, generally mostly dormant) as low as possible.

I was diagnosed years ago with what I now, following a recent US government panel recommendation, call SEID (Systemic Exertion Intolerance Disease – previously myalgic encephalomyelitis, chronic fatigue syndrome, and so on). My case was triggered by a virus, very likely EBV or HHV6. I still have flare-ups, and I have reason to believe the symptoms are partly if not mostly the result of a reactivation of one of my dormant herpes viruses (probably HHV6).

I've been on 25 mg sertraline (Zoloft) off and on for years – in recent years, mostly to help with sleep. I didn't have quite enough evidence to confirm a clinically important suspicion until, I think, now: that the (pretty well-known) natural killer cell–enhancing effect of SSRIs was keeping my herpes viral load in check. What happened now was that I went completely off sertraline, tapering carefully, and noted a concomitant rise in SEID symptoms – the ones I tend to get, which always seem "virally" to me (others have diff. symptom profiles): scratchy throat, swollen lymph nodes, swollen salivary glands (classic HHV6 symptom), and of course post-exertional wiped-out-ness.

I go into this background and am posting for several reasons.

1. I know others have SEID or similar conditions and might want to dig into the research about serotonin levels (manipulated by any means, including non-pharmacological resolution of depression) and natural killer cell function.

2. Others might want to think about how, generally, herpes viral load could be reduced.

3. Finally, before I go back on sertraline, I'm wondering whether anyone has looked into NK cell activation and discovered something that works for them. I have of course dug around and found and tried to no effect all the various supplements and herbs recommended for improving NK cell–activity. But if there's anything new out there it might be worth looking into.

Hope everyone is well!
G

P.S. A couple cool articles about serotonin and the immune system:

Immunomodulatory Effects Mediated by Serotonin

A Dialogue between the Immune System and Brain, Spoken in the Language of Serotonin (This one is a great primer.)
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Julie G
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Re: Herpes viruses and dementia: knocking down viral load via serotonin manipulation

Post by Julie G »

G, nice to see you posting! How intently have you looked into or worked on your gut health? I ask as serotonin is produced both in the gut and brain and the two are tightly connected. Like you, I suffered with severe GI symptoms most of my life, but with my past five year focus on health optimization and a resolution of symptoms, I blindly assumed my gut was healed. My FMP found otherwise: H.Pylori, SIBO, likely leaky gut, etc. He's had me on an intensive protocol to address all of that and I'm about to retest again. I've learned a few important things along the way that might be helpful to you:

1.) Probiotics have a huge impact on my mood and presumably serotonin level. I learned this as I had to abstain from them (and all probiotic food for several weeks) for some of my testing. I went into a pretty dark place during my hiatus that resolved once I began them again. My personal happy pill is VSL #3. I'm still taking that every AM along with MegaSporbiotic at night, alternating with PrescriptAssist- basically dirt in a capsule.

2.) Prebiotics are just as important. Consider experimenting with Guar Gum. Per my FMP's recommendation, I use a scoop of SunFiber every night. OMG. The first week I began using it, the effect on my sleep and mood was so profound that I felt drugged. I had the best sleep of my life and felt so happy & relaxed. The positive effect has toned down a bit, but definitely remains with continued use. I learned that it acts as a prebiotic and feeds the good gut bugs. I recently ran out and felt both the mood and sleep benefit deteriorate.
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Re: Herpes viruses and dementia: knocking down viral load via serotonin manipulation

Post by Gilgamesh »

Julie, Wow, interesting and potentially critical info. My gut problems have resolved – or, I now, having read your thoughts, must say: they felt like they had resolved – when I cut out gluten. But maybe not!

I realize I would really love to find a good physician who will work with me on this stuff.... But, in the meantime, I can certainly experiment on my own with the items you list. I have done some trials with pre- and probiotics, without noticing any changes, but didn't try anything from your list.

Do let us know what your retesting shows!

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Re: Herpes viruses and dementia: knocking down viral load via serotonin manipulation

Post by pguyer807 »

Gilgamesh wrote:Hey everyone,

Most of us are aware of the links between a couple of the herpes viruses (HSV1, CMV) and Alzheimer's, but it's not a stretch to hypothesize that all eight of the so far discovered herpes viruses can increase risk of Alzheimer's or other forms of dementia. Each has a different preferred cellular target, but given the similarity of the surface "look" (to a hungry virus) of various immune system cells and nervous system cells, and, in addition, given the connection itself between the nervous system and the immune system, it seems like a good idea to keep background levels of whatever herpes viruses we have (and we all have at least few, generally mostly dormant) as low as possible.

I was diagnosed years ago with what I now, following a recent US government panel recommendation, call SEID (Systemic Exertion Intolerance Disease – previously myalgic encephalomyelitis, chronic fatigue syndrome, and so on). My case was triggered by a virus, very likely EBV or HHV6. I still have flare-ups, and I have reason to believe the symptoms are partly if not mostly the result of a reactivation of one of my dormant herpes viruses (probably HHV6).

I've been on 25 mg sertraline (Zoloft) off and on for years – in recent years, mostly to help with sleep. I didn't have quite enough evidence to confirm a clinically important suspicion until, I think, now: that the (pretty well-known) natural killer cell–enhancing effect of SSRIs was keeping my herpes viral load in check. What happened now was that I went completely off sertraline, tapering carefully, and noted a concomitant rise in SEID symptoms – the ones I tend to get, which always seem "virally" to me (others have diff. symptom profiles): scratchy throat, swollen lymph nodes, swollen salivary glands (classic HHV6 symptom), and of course post-exertional wiped-out-ness.

I go into this background and am posting for several reasons.

1. I know others have SEID or similar conditions and might want to dig into the research about serotonin levels (manipulated by any means, including non-pharmacological resolution of depression) and natural killer cell function.

2. Others might want to think about how, generally, herpes viral load could be reduced.

3. Finally, before I go back on sertraline, I'm wondering whether anyone has looked into NK cell activation and discovered something that works for them. I have of course dug around and found and tried to no effect all the various supplements and herbs recommended for improving NK cell–activity. But if there's anything new out there it might be worth looking into.

Hope everyone is well!
G

P.S. A couple cool articles about serotonin and the immune system:

Immunomodulatory Effects Mediated by Serotonin

A Dialogue between the Immune System and Brain, Spoken in the Language of Serotonin (This one is a great primer.)
I have recently learned I have SEID. After more than 20 years of relentless up and down fatigue, exhaustion and getting wiped out by
exercise. Also have orthostatic hypotension.
Did you get blood test to determine herpes strain? I get cold sores maybe a couple of times a year.
It's all concerning because I'm 3/4 and there is reason to believe that
mitochondrial dysfunction is a contributing cause.

I have been doing a lot of research and the cause is really not known.
Thanks for sharing that!



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Gilgamesh
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Re: Herpes viruses and dementia: knocking down viral load via serotonin manipulation

Post by Gilgamesh »

P, I'm so glad you at least have a diagnosis! Of course treatment is the real challenge....

To your question: I've been tested only for EBV (positive), HHV6 (pos.), and HHV1 (neg.). Nothing unusual about that. The key is looking at subtypes of antibodies to see the level of activity of the virus. I've been tested for EBV several times, each showing diff. profiles of antibodies. Once it looked pretty normal, but the other times the virus appeared somewhat active (but not hugely so).

You know about the research into SEID and the vagus nerve, right? See Susan's great wiki article for the importance of the vagus nerve:

https://wiki.apoe4.info/wiki/Vagus_Nerve


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Re: Herpes viruses and dementia: knocking down viral load via serotonin manipulation

Post by progranulindefect »

Julie, don't the carbs in Sun Fiber kick you out of ketosis overnight? Couldn't you get higher ketones without those carbs? Carbs are scarce on a ketogenic diet. Isn't it a waste to use them on SunFiber when you could spend them on a whole food with low carbs/high fiber/high nutritional value?
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Re: Herpes viruses and dementia: knocking down viral load via serotonin manipulation

Post by Julie G »

Great question, Pro. I wasn't even taking the carbs from my SunFiber into account on my CRON-O-meter. I woke this morning with a BHB reading of 0.7mM so it must not interfere. Perhaps because it is all fiber? I've been uber-focused on putting together a presentation on my version of a keto diet so I've been heavily tinkering with my macronutrient levels as they relate to being able to achieve ketosis and I've learned some interesting things that I'll share in a separate post when I get a chance.

FWIW, many members are Dxed with SEID, CFS, CFIDS, myalgic encephalomyelitis or suffer the symptoms without a formal Dx. IMO, too many for it to be happenstance. My son (3/4) was Dxed at age 12. Reactivated viruses may be at play and/or CIRS-related stuff. All of this is layered upon our already sub-optimal mitochondria...ouch. My guess is that getting to and addressing the root cause, along with upregulating mitochondria, and simply optimizing overall health is our best path forward.

G, it's worth mentioning that my GI rehab has included MUCH more than what I mentioned in my previous post, but those specific strategies seemed to really upregulate serotonin for me. I meant to mention that your allergy-like symptoms to tapering off sertraline look a lot like mast cell activation which many hear also deal with. Once again, too many for mere happenstance...
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Re: Herpes viruses and dementia: knocking down viral load via serotonin manipulation

Post by progranulindefect »

Julie, once i read in your diet that Sun Fiber helped with sleep, i bought it from Amazon right away. later i checked that one level teaspoon (tablespoon?) is 7 grams of carbs. well, i'll still take it and see if it helps. i am continuing to get better sleep if i strictly follow no exercise in second half of day, no computer/smart phone/food 3 to 4 hours before bed, and very light dinner before bed (like a small salad with no protein). after mini-stroke symptoms following the ultimate sleep aid for me: aleve plus 5 htp, i am super motivated to keep up this restrictive routine. i know this routine works because when i violate on of the 'rules', hot flashes/insominia/ and or headache are back reliably. when i follow the rules, they do not show up.
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Re: Herpes viruses and dementia: knocking down viral load via serotonin manipulation

Post by apod »

Juliegee wrote:Great question, Pro. I wasn't even taking the carbs from my SunFiber into account on my CRON-O-meter. I woke this morning with a BHB reading of 0.7mM so it must not interfere. Perhaps because it is all fiber? I've been uber-focused on putting together a presentation on my version of a keto diet so I've been heavily tinkering with my macronutrient levels as they relate to being able to achieve ketosis and I've learned some interesting things that I'll share in a separate post when I get a chance.
I'm looking forward to reading what you're seeing in the numbers around dietary tweaks -- a morning ketone level of 0.7mmol/L is pretty substantial without going full HFLC-mode (I think it usually reads lowest in the morning.) Too bad those breath ketone meters aren't more accurate around that grey area of just enough carb restriction to start bringing ketones up, since it can get fairly pricy doing daily BHB readings.

I have read that ketones can function as a HDAC inhibitor (not sure how relevant the biochemistry is in the case of herpes viruses.) http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/11/07/086249)

Looking around for some more novel foods / herbal extracts for knocking down viral load, I found a bunch of articles where curcumin / quercetin / resveratrol look effective. I wasn't aware that pomegranate might also be somewhat effective: http://www.jocpr.com/articles/in-vitro- ... a-gran.pdf
Cranberries, grape seed extract, and other polyphenol rich foods & herbs also looked effective. (Colorful, flavorful foods and fiber-rich meals FTW?)

I've read that Resistant Starch before bed is particularly effective as a prebiotic for modulating serotonin... although the jury is out on how this affects cholesterol.
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Re: Herpes viruses and dementia: knocking down viral load via serotonin manipulation

Post by progranulindefect »

i have the cold sore version of the herpes virus. it came out two years in a row out around the same time of year- february- when i was anemic and had low vita d 17. probably just the overall physical/psychological stress on my body at the time brought the virus out of dormancy.
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