Diet help. Please post what is working for you!

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Julie G
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Re: Diet help. Please post what is working for you!

Postby Julie G » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:45 am

Swamp, sorry about your father and glad you’re here. There’s no need to respond right away. We all post when we can.
I know I keep referring to these videos, but I've yet to see anyone review the evidence as thoroughly. These videos aren’t someone’s personal thoughts, they are a review of what the scientific literature actually says, as well as reviewing the references that cholesterol sceptics, like Gary Taubes, use to confuse people. But no one seems to want to engage with this evidence. If people are genuinely interested in what the scientific evidence shows, instead of trying to hold onto their preconceived beliefs, then they would review and engage with this evidence and may actually learn something. Instead, it seems a better use of everyone’s time to just read my comments and then respond back to me.

I watched the first couple of videos you initially linked and was underwhelmed. Apologies if you're the creator. First, the tone was unbearably negative and confrontational and continued into the comments. Rather than make a case for low LDL-C as the biomarker to track to avoid CVD (which was your claim), the videos focused almost exclusively on tearing apart petty inconsistencies in some lowcarber’s arguments, ignoring the rest of the message, and then generally cherry-picking old medical literature to very weakly make a case. Whenever anyone ignores the totality of work out there, (Perlmutter included!) I tend to tune out. I respect scientists who acknowledge the opposing science and address it. Denise Minger's work is a terrific example. Diving into the inconsistencies, paradoxes, unknowns, and revelations is where real learning and growth happens...not by watching propaganda.

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Re: Diet help. Please post what is working for you!

Postby lol » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:03 am

I am also sorry to hear about your dad, Swamp, and hope you post frequently.

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Re: Diet help. Please post what is working for you!

Postby DaveKeto » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:37 am

swampf0etus wrote:Hi Dave and everyone following these comments,

I'm afraid that this is going to have to be my last response. Sorry if I’ve not responded to everyone. I just don’t have the time.

I hope I’ve not offended you Dave, I do actually have a lot of respect for you and your experiments. A lot more than everyone else in the low carb circles.


No worries. I'm actually very difficult to offend.

I often find the most powerful things I've learned come from trying to defend a position and being unsuccessful at it. The trick is to acknolwedge when this is happening and understand why it requires self-evolving to a new position.


swampf0etus wrote:
DaveKeto wrote:I don’t think I’m more *qualified* than other lipidologists.


I wan't saying that YOU do. I was saying that others may think this. I'm pointing out that there are many others in this field that have more relevant qualifications and decades worth of research and experience in this area. They just need to be aware of this when reviewing your work, that's all.


Your point is well taken. And indeed, while I can’t do it at every possible mention of [my name=cholesterol-is-irrelevant], you will notice I don’t speak in categorical dismissals. In fact, I often fit in occasional tweets like this one — https://twitter.com/DaveKeto/status/852256998594715648

However, with that said, I’m sure you would likewise agree that there have been countless episodes through history where medicine has gotten a specific, unproven hypothesis that seemed reasonable and was treated as fact. This is particularly the case when financial outcomes are built on this assumption and the treatment for it. It’s not a good or evil thing, it’s just human nature.

swampf0etus wrote:
DaveKeto wrote:Shouldn’t the elderly population be populated with those who naturally have lower LDL-C/-P? Or to put it another way, if LDL-C and/or LDL-P is independently atherogenic, wouldn’t all-cause mortality increase parabolically, thus leaving only lower level carriers as survivors the older a population gets?


This is something that used to have me confused. The question sounds straightforward, but I think it's quite complicated.<snip>


On this we completely agree. But here’s the catch — there are a number of things that truly are “independent” risk factors.

An obvious one is smoking. The more you smoke, the higher your risk of dying. And like most independent risk factors, there’s a strong association and a clear curve curve with use and quantity. Without question, there are multiple factors that play into this risk such as exercise, genetics, diet, etc — but when you control for all of these, you still have smoking as an independent risk factor.

Another obvious one is waist-to-hip ratio. The more visceral fat you have, the higher your risk. And this too has a strong association with all cause mortality and clear curve to it.

I don’t categorically dismiss cholesterol having an association with atherosclerosis, even though it is a weak one when shown in large studies (relative to the risk factors above, for example). But the problem is that LDL particles (not just cholesterol) are in use for many purposes within our bodies, such as reparative for injury or immunological for infectious events (the body often upregulates LDL particles to bind to pathogens in this circumstance).

Thus, I’m surprised high cholesterol isn’t *more* associative with death, given it’s likelihood to have LDL particles engaged in a final (if futile) stage of life-saving measures for the context. Much like I’d expect people to be more likely to die in the proximity of a doctor than not. A doctor has a high association with death, but not because he/she is the killer.

Which is why I completely agree — it’s complicated! Trying to control for the *positive* association of LDL particles given its many roles in a diseased or injurious state is probably something we may not be able to see in years if not decades.


swampf0etus wrote:But using small points like this to undermine the whole lipid hypothesis reminds me of 9/11 truthers clinging to any tiny bit of unexplained evidence to hold up their whole conspiracy theory, despite seeing every other piece of their argument debunked and shot down in flames. Even if this one, small argument can’t be explained does that mean all the other explainable evidence can just be ignored to falsify the whole argument?

I'm not saying that you are any kind of truther or conspiracy theorist, by the way.


That was very colorful, swamp — but I do feel this paragraph isn’t befitting your otherwise very cogent, debating style. :)

The reason I wanted to start with that point is that it isn’t easily dismissed. If LDL-C/-P is indeed an independent risk factor with all things being equal, then populations would shed more and more of those with naturally higher amounts as they aged. If the answer to this is “it’s complicated” (to which I agree), then the converse — “it’s simple” — would almost certainly be wrong. Thus, saying LDL-C/-P will independently increase your risk of dying is too simplistic. Wouldn't you agree?

Note that this is why I’m so adamant about examining the lipid system as a *system* and why it matters to me to review only studies that have all cause mortality as an endpoint (I just tweeted on this very thing recently https://twitter.com/DaveKeto/status/878651154812420096). For example, if the body is more likely to kill you from CVD while saving you from cancer or AD and the net outcome is a longer lifespan, then I’m okay with that (and I suspect most people would be too).

EDIT: swampf0etus, if you're reading this right now and it's still the weekend -- STOP! Go get time in with your family. The internet will still be here on Monday. One thing no one argues about is the importance of family for long term longevity. I don't want any responsibility for shortening your lifespan. :D :D :D

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Re: Diet help. Please post what is working for you!

Postby eap1992 » Mon Jul 10, 2017 9:01 pm

How big of a salad do you all eat for lunch and/or dinner? I'd like to have a better gauge of how much in terms of veggies everyone eats (by number of ounces or one of this one of that, etc). I fixed myself and my husband a huge salad tonight (power greens 5 oz split between us, and then i used one of three different radishes -an ostragruss, watermelon, and shunkyo- i got from an online csa, a quarter of a head of red cabbage, two julienned carrots, cilantro --meant to use parsley-- then evoo/apple cider vinegar dressing). It was a ton to get through/chew through and obviously didn't make a dent in my stomach.

Also, do you all usually by green separately (a bunch of kale, spinach, etc) or the salad mixes in the plastic containers? I did the later tonight purely because I knew it would save me a ton of time to not have to chop and rinse, but thinking most people probably do the former?

There really needs to be a youtube channel where people show how they make everything. I've tried looking at pictures of meals previously posted on here and so many i'm not able to see for some reason.

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Re: Diet help. Please post what is working for you!

Postby floramaria » Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:21 am

Hello eap1992,

I am eating enormous salads most days. Out of curiosity , I just filled the bowl I use with water and measured it: 5 CUPS. So I would say my usual salad is 4-5 cups of raw vegetables. in addition to leafy greens, cabbage, carrots, radicchio and whatever else I have in the veggie bin ( I rotate veggies to be sure I am getting all the photo nutrients) I usually add 1 small avocado ( or 1/2 a large one) some nuts and/or seeds, some kimchee or other fermented veggie and most days either sardines or salmon or chicken breast, 3-4 oz. . With the added fats and protein , I find it to be a delicious and satisfying meal, though as you said, it is a lot of chewing!!

As for the prepackaged greens versus fresh buches of individual greens, I often use a base of the Organic super greens or other packaged salad mix that is pre-washed, and ready to pour in the bowl, just because it is easy and time saving.
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Re: Diet help. Please post what is working for you!

Postby ru442 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:14 am

My salads are 12-14 cups (most containers have number of cups stamped on them), based on the Rubbermaid container I use (I fill it to the top). If I can't get locally grown fresh veggies, I buy organic at the store and use the organic branded mixed greens, along with some organic iceberg or romaine leaf lettuce for some crunch. Usually have a cup of calamatta olives (several dozen), half large onion, red/orange/yellow pepper (for the lectin avoiders a no-no), EVOO and balsimic. This generally meets the rule of 10-12 cups fresh greens/veggies a day, but I eat one for lunch and one for dinner on most days. When I have protein I usually eat that on the side (shrimp/sardines/smoked oysters/cod etc.).

This may be a ton for most folks, but I am not CR and this fills me so I hardly ever am hungry between meals... even my fasting window (which is usually 15 hours minimum). Some folks could probably cut this in half and eat one for each meal and be fine.... YMMV.
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Re: Diet help. Please post what is working for you!

Postby CarrieS » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:30 am

I tend to use a couple of cups of mixed organic baby greens as a base and then add a combination of veggies such as Persian cucumber, (red, yellow or orange) bell pepper, cherry tomatoes, red onion, homemade sauerkraut, carrot, spinach, raw or fermented beets, radish, shitake mushrooms, micro sprouts, purple cabbage, asparagus, arugula, kale, etc. It really depends on what I have in the vegetable bin, how much room I have in my 4 or 5 cup bowl and my mood. If I have leftover cooked veggies, they tend to make it in my salad too. For protein I add chicken breast, sometimes black beans, leftover meat, shrimp, etc. Sometimes I add seeds or Kalamata olives. For the dressing I use EVOO or Avocado Oil, fresh lemon juice, sea salt and pepper or make a blended dressing by adding garlic, miso or tahini, apple cider vinegar, cilantro, etc and blend in a small blender cup. Have fun with your combinations.

Yes, it's lots of chewing so I will typically eat this for lunch. I work from home so I quickly throw together what I have in a large bowl and call it good. Almond crackers are nice to have on the side.

I think about the rainbow of colors available and try to make sure that I've chosen foods in each color category every day to get my phytonutrients. For example, tomatoes (red), carrots (orange), bell pepper (yellow), purple cabbage (purple), jicima (white), cucumber (green) when choosing vegetables.
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Re: Diet help. Please post what is working for you!

Postby circular » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:33 am

Chewing promotes neurogenesis. In addition to my large, chewing intense salads, I often snack on cut whole carrots (chewier than baby carrots) and tiger nuts for more chewing action. Go for the chew!
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Re: Diet help. Please post what is working for you!

Postby Jan » Sat Jul 15, 2017 9:58 am

I had to look up tigernuts. Turns out, I've eaten them and didn't know it. (The Whole Foods near us has an expansive food bar.) Chewing is good, but I see that you can also get them in powder form to add to smoothies. I've never tried that.
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Re: Diet help. Please post what is working for you!

Postby Jan » Sat Jul 15, 2017 11:26 am

More on tigernuts - www.tigernuts.com

High Omega 6 content, high potassium content, source of magnesium, gluten free, nuts free, high fiber content.
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