Stavia's Vegetarian very low fat trial

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Stavia
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Re: Stavia's Vegetarian very low fat trial

Postby Stavia » Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:59 pm

ya I was thinking that actually. Ill start with 30 mins to find out where the peak would most likely be.
Im quite excited actually. Haven't done test and tweak for ages.

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Re: Stavia's Vegetarian very low fat trial

Postby JML » Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:47 am

What a well thought out plan! You are very inspiring! I can't join you right now, but I look forward to following your journey.
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Re: Stavia's Vegetarian very low fat trial

Postby Tincup » Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:05 pm

Ladyjane wrote:"However, I'm not far off from the Ornish numbers in my current Gundry incarnation."

GeorgeN, How much of Gundry's protocol have you adopted? All of it or parts of it? And if parts of it, which parts?


We are Gundry patients and have been for a number of years. We have posted details of all of our four consultations with transcripts and redacted labs and the links are in this post. Just so happens we are having another one this afternoon and will post same on that one later.

We follow Gundry's Plant Paradox (used to be called "Matrix") eating list, but modified for ApoE4's per his recommendations. So the only animal/fish/dairy/poultry/pork we consume are from omega3 or pastured eggs, shell fish or white fish. At this writing we only do this 2-3 times per week and that is mostly the eggs. We eat the fish/shellfish a couple of times a month. Additionally our protein from animal products, on the days we eat them, is limited to 20g/day. His most recent food lists are here. We don't do hardly any fruit except avocado. When I did a two week detailed diet diary in March, with a gram scale, here are the results:

Item Average Minimum Maximum
Energy (kcal) 2167.46 1800.55 2495.41
Protein (g) 52.04 34.61 69.84
Carbs (g) 122.11 87.89 179.42
Fiber (g) 51.30 44.36 66.14
Starch (g) 21.20 6.71 89.95
Sugars (g) 32.14 23.98 41.24
Fat (g) 175.04 142.54 212

My wife doesn't do all the crazy stuff that follows, though she also gets excellent results. In fact her A1c (<4.2%) beats mine (4.6%). She eats in an 8 hour window daily.

Not per Gundry but I am also doing a fasting/refeeding experiment described in more detail here. There are more posts about this farther down in the thread. I've eaten once a day, in a two hour window, for 26 months, been keto-adapted for 8 years. In the fasting/refeeding experiment, I fast for a continuous 120 hour block (5 days) once in every 14 day period. So if I eat Sunday night, I'll eat again Friday night. Then the next fasting cycle starts a week from the following Monday. I've done 8 of these since May 1 and had done 6 prior to my most recent blood work for Gundry (which was taken after 9 days of refeeding). I'm weight stable when looked at from day 1 of a fasting cycle to day 1 of the next cycle.

I've also repeated this exercise experiment on the day of the link and every fifth fasting day since that I've been home. On the subsequent ones, I've been able to increase either load or time under load each time, though not dramatically like the first one that I linked.

We'll post full labs later but TC = 163 mg/dL, TG=58 mg/dL, HDL=57 mg/dL, LDL-C=102 mg/dL, LDL-P 1116 mmol/L, sdLDL-c 20 mg/dL, Lp(a) 26 mg/dL, ApoB/ApoA-1= 0.56
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Re: Stavia's Vegetarian very low fat trial

Postby Ladyjane » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:43 pm

George N,

OMG! I cannot comprehend how much time and effort it took for you and your wife to compile all the Gundry information for our members. I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your gracious gift of invaluable data linked together in one place.

Since I have switched over to a LCHF diet last April and most recently delved into the research available for specific APO4 diet, I seem to be going two steps forward and one step backwards because of conflicting information--sometimes given by the same expert, doctor, or scientist. I am still uncertain of Gundry's opinion of MCT oil (C8)? I know he wants APOE4's to avoid pure coconut oil, but I think at his 2016 lecture at the Ancestral Health conference, MCT OIL received his nod of approval? Wish I had written this post to you sooner, so you could specifically ask him in your consultation today.

Also today, I watched an interview of Dr. Richard Veech, leading researcher on ketones, moderated by Dave Asprey. In his talk, he dissed the ketone salts sold by different companies to help increase ketone levels. Veech says these racemic salts are causing more damage than good. Of course, I have been using them intermittently between fasting! Who knew? I base my decisions on one expert (Dominic D'Agastino) and then discover from another expert that it is harmful rather than helpful. I did some further digging, and it seems Veech has a patent on a new product for ketone esters, which he praises their use to raise ketones. The post did not tell you the name of the product or when it would be released.

My sdLDL's are way too high, and my HDL is way too low. I have to figure out how to reverse both of them. I am slowly but surely moving in the direction of a 90% Grundy plant based lectin-free diet (but digging in my heels because of so many restrictions--I enjoy eating meat and cheese). In the future, I hope our members can discuss A2 dairy products, and their ramifications on APOE4's. I have researched to a small degree the history of A2 cows and the politics thwarting the consumer's ability to purchase A2 dairy as well as thwarting the public's awareness of the health damaging A1 milk. The mainstream dairy industry is a bunch of thugs. Big food corporations and agricultural industries place so many barriers in our quest and need for wholesome, healthy foods. It is a wonder the human race is not extinct.

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Re: Stavia's Vegetarian very low fat trial

Postby Tincup » Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:49 am

Ladyjane wrote: Since I have switched over to a LCHF diet last April and most recently delved into the research available for specific APO4 diet, I seem to be going two steps forward and one step backwards because of conflicting information--sometimes given by the same expert, doctor, or scientist. I am still uncertain of Gundry's opinion of MCT oil (C8)? I know he wants APOE4's to avoid pure coconut oil, but I think at his 2016 lecture at the Ancestral Health conference, MCT OIL received his nod of approval? Wish I had written this post to you sooner, so you could specifically ask him in your consultation today.


Don't feel bad about your path. I think most of us would agree that getting your insulin/glucose system in order is first priority. It may be good enough to gain a huge benefit. What Gundry tells us is to "get our numbers in line and then see what we can get away with."

We did ask on MCT oil. He says that he's observed in patients and himself (he's a 3/3) that those who continue taking MCT oil up to right before the blood draw that triglycerides and sdLDL increase. Hence he says it would be low down on the list for 4's.

Ladyjane wrote:Also today, I watched an interview of Dr. Richard Veech, leading researcher on ketones, moderated by Dave Asprey. In his talk, he dissed the ketone salts sold by different companies to help increase ketone levels. Veech says these racemic salts are causing more damage than good. Of course, I have been using them intermittently between fasting! Who knew? I base my decisions on one expert (Dominic D'Agastino) and then discover from another expert that it is harmful rather than helpful. I did some further digging, and it seems Veech has a patent on a new product for ketone esters, which he praises their use to raise ketones. The post did not tell you the name of the product or when it would be released.


Dom D'Agostino presented at Low Carb San Diego. He talked about racemic salts and says they can be quite beneficial. In other interviews he thinks that Veech is off base. I can't say who is correct. They are both very bright and respected researchers.

Ladyjane wrote:My sdLDL's are way too high, and my HDL is way too low. I have to figure out how to reverse both of them. I am slowly but surely moving in the direction of a 90% Grundy plant based lectin-free diet (but digging in my heels because of so many restrictions--I enjoy eating meat and cheese). In the future, I hope our members can discuss A2 dairy products, and their ramifications on APOE4's. I have researched to a small degree the history of A2 cows and the politics thwarting the consumer's ability to purchase A2 dairy as well as thwarting the public's awareness of the health damaging A1 milk.


My understanding, from a Gundry perspective, is that the A1/A2 issue is an autoimmune one and is not an E4 issue, but for all. Gundry has told us that he's observed that cheese seems to be a bad actor for E4's (because of the fat). What he observes for animal fat and coconut oil is that for E4's, sdLDL increases with their consumption. His limitation on animal protein is for all, not just E4's and is related to IFG-1 & mTOR. When those pathways are elevated in mid-life and later aging is accelerated. It is specifically the methionine amino acid, which is much more expressed in animal proteins (including fish). These pathway correlations with aging and life/healthspan have been demonstrated in yeast, nematodes, mice and humans. See here here here here here and here.
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Re: Stavia's Vegetarian very low fat trial

Postby Tincup » Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:57 am

Again on addressing insulin resistance.

The full paper is linked. Look at Table 5.
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Re: Stavia's Vegetarian very low fat trial

Postby mimik67 » Mon Aug 14, 2017 11:58 am

Hi George!

My understanding, from a Gundry perspective, is that the A1/A2 issue is an autoimmune one and is not an E4 issue, but for all. Gundry has told us that he's observed that cheese seems to be a bad actor for E4's (because of the fat). What he observes for animal fat and coconut oil is that for E4's, sdLDL increases with their consumption.


I still get confused on this. Straus Creamery and other dairy peeps with decent farming practices say the a1/a2 breeding is so very complicated. Also, A1/A2 is autoimmune, but the A2 products available in California for example (Rumiano Cheese and St. Benoit creamery) are A2 but also exclusively grass fed. I have not seen Gundry discuss the differences between consumption of 100% grass fed animal products v. other? It seems that if one was going to have, say a weekly cheat/treat (I dont eat any sugar or other processed crap) that wouldn't the grass fed/higher omega 3 dairy be preferable?
3,4 but no family history of Altzheimers. However, mother likely had CIRS

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Re: Stavia's Vegetarian very low fat trial

Postby mimik67 » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:03 am

Stavia cant wait to hear about this!

Someone posted:
I get my protein from oats, nuts, beans, brown rice, wheat and lentils.
good lord. With Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome (Type 3 Altz perhaps? I still get confused on this) it leads to gut inflammation, Dysbiosis and SIBO in many, many CIRS patients. A diet with these macros would kill my gut. I have to keep a moderate MIND type diet, low-ish in animal fat but not without. Some fats and animal fats are so much easier on the gut and do not feed overgrown microbes in the small intestine. Maybe some day as i think these fibers are beneficial when your gut is in good shape
3,4 but no family history of Altzheimers. However, mother likely had CIRS

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Re: Stavia's Vegetarian very low fat trial

Postby Tincup » Wed Aug 16, 2017 10:28 am

Stavia wrote:Then very low fat vegan Esseltyn style. I will aim for 10% fat, again keep protein constant at 60gms. This is going to be tricky, but I'll work it out. I don't like rice or quinoa particularly so I'll probably use our local sweet potatoes a lot. And try source hemp protein
I'll do this for a maximum of 8 weeks. If I feel awful without my usual ketosis, I will bail. But with so much gut microbiome fuel for the buyurate they produce, I may end up in ketosis....lets see.


In this Rhonda Patrick interview of Ray Cronise, (also available on iTunes), he alludes to eating a diet like this, but maybe a bit higher fat, but keeping the blood sugar under control with intermittent fasting - like eating every other day. He wears a continuous glucose monitor, so has a good handle on what is happening. Ray was T2 diabetic at one point.

I'm thinking there may be a way to do the Ornish/Esseltyn plan - also limiting lectins and not toast the insulin/glucose system...
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Re: Stavia's Vegetarian very low fat trial

Postby Anab » Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:00 pm

Status how is your low fat trial going


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