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Armour Thyroid, RT3, T3 conundrum

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maddanwill
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Armour Thyroid, RT3, T3 conundrum

Postby maddanwill » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:25 am

Friends,
Need some help...I have been hypothyroid for years now. I am a 58 yo 3/4. I hired MUSES Labs to develop a protocol for me. One of their recommendations was in re to my RT3 #. My FT3:RT3 ratio is 11. Bredesen wants it >20. It is mostly due to high RT3 (24.7). I have 3 different directions that have been given me:

Muses: Double Armour Thyroid from 30 mg to 60mg

My PCP: Do nothing. Wait and see until I have been doing the protocol for a longer period. (we had no FT3 #'s to compare). She seems to think that the number will come down as I get healthier. She put me on Cerefolin NAC (6mg metafolin, 2mg of Methylcobalamin and 600 mg of N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine) to bring down homocysteine. Can do Cytomel if we don't see positive changes.

Internet (can't remember website...maybe STTM (Stop the Thyroid Madness?): Stop the Armour and maybe take T3 (Cytomel). Armour has T4 and T3 in it. But the amount of T4 is 2X the amount of T3 in the Armour. Thus, continuing it will only raise RT3 since T4 makes both RT3 and FT3.

My homocysteine is 17. My CRP is 1.9. My B12 was over 2,000. My zinc/copper ratio is 1.7 Bredesen wants 1.0. Not sure if these play a role. The internet did say that I needed to find the source of why my body is not getting rid of RT3 to really fix the problem. The weird thing is that my Homocysteine was 14 in May when I started this diet and then after losing 25 pounds and eating a low carb diet (probably higher in protein and lower in fat than most) my Homocysteine is now 17!? What?!

Hopefully, someone has been there done that and can give me some help. Thanks everybody!!

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SusanJ
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Re: Armour Thyroid, RT3, T3 conundrum

Postby SusanJ » Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:56 am

I can't speak to the thyroid questions. But, I can make a couple observations about your homocysteine. Upping your protein probably had some effect, because homocysteine comes from methionine metabolism. So, if you can cut animal protein back some, and replace it with healthy fats like avocados, or even more fibrous foods, it will help a little.

But if less meat and the Cerefolin doesn't help take your levels down, look into TMG (available OTC, and I recommend Life Extension specifically). Some of us have defects in converting choline to a co-factor used to convert homocysteine. Taking TMG bypasses that defect and I've gone from 11.4 to 6 by taking 1000mg of TMG. See my post at viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2965&p=35519&hilit=rs9001#p35519 for more.

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Re: Armour Thyroid, RT3, T3 conundrum

Postby slacker » Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:27 pm

One unanswered question is: why is most of your T4 being converted into RT3 rather than T3? Adding more T3 and less T4 doesn't address the root cause of the problem. And why is your CRP elevated?

The attached diagram shows T4 metabolism, and what drives it down different pathways, such as T3 vs RT3. I got this online from Dr Westin Child's website, and have seen other functional medicine doctors use the same diagram.

Thyroid Health Dr Childs.pdf
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Re: Armour Thyroid, RT3, T3 conundrum

Postby TheBrain » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:38 am

I've had (and still have) unresolved thyroid issues, but mine are different from yours. So unfortunately, I don't have any suggestions for your specific issue with RT3. I mostly want to commiserate with you, but also to share a couple of thoughts.

As far as I know, my RT3 was high only when I was taking too much T4 relative to T3, when a misguided doctor put me on both Synthroid (T4) and Nature-Throid (T3 & T4).

In the spring of this year, I took an online course titled "Thyroid Reset" with naturopath and endocrinologist Alan Christianson (yes, an unusual combination). The eight-week course was inexpensive. As I recall, it was $97. It covered the basics, but he also did a weekly Q&A. He had to be careful not to try to "treat" anyone, but based on student questions, students could get a ton of information relevant to their own situation. He offered this course again soon after mine was finished.

With my primary care physician, I'm now implementing Dr. Christianson's suggestion to decrease my dose of thyroid meds. He didn't suggest that to me specifically, but he said that in the vast majority of cases people with a TSH at or near zero who also have low fT3 and low FT4 are overmedicated. Well, that's been my case. It's been a slow process, but I finally have a measurable TSH at .41. My fT3 and fT4 are still too low, but I don't feel any worse than I did before I started this process. I'm hanging out at my current dose for a while to see if my fT3 and fT4 increase. He says they will in time, but I might need to lower my dose at least one more time.

Dr. Christianson is a big fan of WP Thyroid. He says it's the cleanest of the dessicated thyroid meds. In fact, the last endocrinologist I saw (for about a year) switched me to that medication for the same reason.

I'm wondering if you might be reacting to one of the inactive ingredients in Armour.
ApoE 4/4 - When I was in 7th grade, my fellow students in history class called me "The Brain" because I had such a memory for detail. I excelled at memorization and aced tests. This childhood memory helps me cope!

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Re: Armour Thyroid, RT3, T3 conundrum

Postby TheBrain » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:37 am

maddanwill wrote:I have been hypothyroid for years now. I am a 58 yo 3/4. I hired MUSES Labs to develop a protocol for me. One of their recommendations was in re to my RT3 #. My FT3:RT3 ratio is 11. Bredesen wants it >20. It is mostly due to high RT3 (24.7).


I just started listening to Eileen Laird's Phoenix Helix podcast, EPISODE 54: THYROID HEALTH WITH ELLE RUSS. Great podcast, BTW. It's for people with autoimmune disease who would like to incorporate natural healing methods into their treatment. The paleo autoimmune protocol is a big part of the podcast as well as Eileen's blog.

Elle is the author of The Paleo Thyroid Solution. In addition to being a writer, she's an actor, comedian, health/life coach, and the host of the Primal Blueprint Podcast.

I wonder if Elle had the same reverse T3 problem that you are experiencing.

When Elle began describing her hypothyroidism journey, she mentioned she did well for 6–7 years on dessicated thyroid. Then, she developed a reverse T3 type of hypothyroidism and had to go on T3 only to correct it. She doesn't say if the T3 only approach was short-term or not. I'm just a few minutes into the podcast and need to move on to something else now, but the very detailed show notes list the different kinds of medications. One is: "T3 only. This is a rare medication for very specific thyroid issues."

You might consider taking advantage of her offer of a free 15-minute coaching session to determine if she did experience what you are describing and if she could help you or point you in the right direction. Here's her link: http://www.elleruss.com/about/paleo-coaching
ApoE 4/4 - When I was in 7th grade, my fellow students in history class called me "The Brain" because I had such a memory for detail. I excelled at memorization and aced tests. This childhood memory helps me cope!

maddanwill
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Re: Armour Thyroid, RT3, T3 conundrum

Postby maddanwill » Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:25 pm

Great info Alyson. Thanks!!


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maddanwill
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Re: Armour Thyroid, RT3, T3 conundrum

Postby maddanwill » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:40 pm

Thx Alysson!!


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Re: Armour Thyroid, RT3, T3 conundrum

Postby Karina52 » Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:25 pm

I have been hypothyroid for 25 years. The first 10 years, I was on Synthroid (levothyroxine) and they were the most miserable 10 years of my life. Then I found a functional medicine doctor who put me on NDT. (I use Thyroid S, from Thailand which works well for me) However, I have always had an issue with turning T4 into rT3 and know exactly when my rT3 is high again because I get brain fog... (anything over 16) I will never forget the first time I did the Wilson's protocol and went off T4 altogether, taking only T3 for about 3 months, there was a moment after about two months when I experienced what felt like a curtain lifting and I was amazed at the clarity of thought, the creativity that came back to me. It was an amazing experience and I wondered back then if Alzheimer's patients are low on T3.....indeed they are.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/thre ... rt3.10448/

I am also homozygous for the MTHFR (C677TT) variant and so my methylation cycle does not function very well. (I'm feeling a lot better since I know about this and have been taking methyl B12 shots every week and methyl folate daily which my body can actually use!

I also have high heavy metals exposure and am working on bringing that down but I think that also explains why, with a constant state of inflammation, my body turns T4 into rT3. For now, I have found a happy medium which keeps rT3 in check. I have reduced my NDT to 1.5 grain and I add 25 mcgs of Cytomel every day. Another very interesting thing I noticed is that before I added Cytomel, I slept very poorly.... would not get into deep sleep and would wake up feeling exhausted. Since adding my Cytomel I literally sleep like a log!!

I believe that for those of us with thyroid issues, it is particularly important to keep rT3 down and free T3 in the upper range. Of course, those in Europe will have a hard time finding Cytomel though it is available via "roundabout ways" since my sister in law lives in Germany and uses it too.


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