Hi All -
A brief introduction - i'm a recent member of the forum, lurking for a few weeks, taking in all the knowledge, and running myself in circles trying to learn as much about APOE as possible. I'm a 4/4 with a family history on both sides, all dead in their 60's/70s. joy. I'm also a nutritional therapy student currently writing a paper (due nov 7) on dietary and lifestyle intervention for ApoE4. (yes, i did get to choose the topic, and the more i read and supposedly 'learn' the more i'm starting to regret not choosing something simple like CVD).
In short - for a week i've spent 8-12 hours/day learning everything i never thought i'd need to know about fat metabolism, cholesterol, insulin resistance, inflammation, etc... I feel like i've been running in circles, getting nowhere, and now i'm starting to panic as i've got 10k words due in less than 3 weeks and not a single one written!
This has been my go-to resource for simple explanations of complex topics. It does sometimes take a bit of patience to get through 60+pages of posts to find an answer, but there always seems to be fabulous tangents along with way.
In an effort to ease my pain i thought it might be a better use of my time to post my greatest burning question that i just can't seem to answer for all the reading in teh world....
If carbs/insulin/etc. isn't so great for a 4/4 (causing inflammation and all), and fat is better, i've got it in my head that saturated fat bad for 4/4 and i just can't figure out why. I think i'm probably staring the answer in the face, but i've just been at it so long and I'm so turned around, I just can't see the forrest for the trees.
Any counsel, advice, lecture, youtube, link, research, etc would be forever appreciated right now....
Many thanks,
n/f
Forrests, Trees, and Saturated Fat
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naughtyferret
- Contributor
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:19 pm
Forrests, Trees, and Saturated Fat
-n/f (4/4)
Re: Forrests, Trees, and Saturated Fat
You won't find consensus on this topic. While I perceive that most of us believe that saturated fat is harmful, I am not the only member who disagrees. In fact, some of us place saturated fat from pastured animals at the bases of our food pyramids.
Have you come across these threads yet?
Chris Masterjohn on saturated fat
Rethinking the etiology of CAD
Have you come across these threads yet?
Chris Masterjohn on saturated fat
Rethinking the etiology of CAD
Re: Forrests, Trees, and Saturated Fat
hi 
yup hugely grey area huh. I personally just don't know currently. There isn't any hard evidence .
Scary how when you look closely at what looks like an established "fact", the hard evidence isn't actually there?
I personally limit my saturated fat in case it's true.
yup hugely grey area huh. I personally just don't know currently. There isn't any hard evidence .
Scary how when you look closely at what looks like an established "fact", the hard evidence isn't actually there?
I personally limit my saturated fat in case it's true.
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naughtyferret
- Contributor
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:19 pm
Re: Forrests, Trees, and Saturated Fat
Thanks, both. Marc - i think my head may explode after that link...
This paper is turning in to a nightmare - because it's personal i want to actually understand what i'm writing because it can change my life... but i just don't have the time (or the 20+ years of medical training). I think for the assignment i need to find an easier mechanism to talk about, but from a personal standpoint - i just want to cry in to the keyboard. It feels like no matter how hard i study or how much i read, i just can't learn enough fast enough... today has been a very challenging day.
This paper is turning in to a nightmare - because it's personal i want to actually understand what i'm writing because it can change my life... but i just don't have the time (or the 20+ years of medical training). I think for the assignment i need to find an easier mechanism to talk about, but from a personal standpoint - i just want to cry in to the keyboard. It feels like no matter how hard i study or how much i read, i just can't learn enough fast enough... today has been a very challenging day.
-n/f (4/4)
Re: Forrests, Trees, and Saturated Fat
Most of us feel this way, even without the deadline of a research paper. Drinking out of a fire hose, knowing there is a fire, but not sure how best to put it out! Hang in there. Be kind to yourself and find an easier topic for your paper.naughtyferret wrote:Thanks, both. Marc - i think my head may explode after that link...
This paper is turning in to a nightmare - because it's personal i want to actually understand what i'm writing because it can change my life... but i just don't have the time (or the 20+ years of medical training). I think for the assignment i need to find an easier mechanism to talk about, but from a personal standpoint - i just want to cry in to the keyboard. It feels like no matter how hard i study or how much i read, i just can't learn enough fast enough... today has been a very challenging day.
Slacker
E4/E4
E4/E4
Re: Forrests, Trees, and Saturated Fat
Welcome to the site!
Ultimately, I believe SFA is condemned for E4's due its propensity to increase LDL-P. SFA is a rather large blanket though, as fats like stearic acid are metabolized similar to oleic acid, like you would find in olive oil, and C8 & C10 fats are different beasts yet (seemingly largely increasing HDL in my experience.) C12 seems quite a bit different yet. The newer French diet recommendations mention "Saturated FA cannot be regarded as a unit because they differ in their structure, their metabolism, their cell functions and even their deleterious effects in case of excess. From now on it is advisable to distinguish the subgroup of lauric, myristic, and palmitic acids which is atherogenic in the event of excess."
I like the recommendations here to limit lauric + myristic + palmitic acids to 8% of total energy, without necessarily going after total SFA. I think this is a reasonable target, even into a high fat diet. Perhaps this is similar to avoiding excess sugar or fructose without necessarily going after all carbohydrates.
The jury's still out on whether you're generally seeing a rise in sdLDL with that SFA associated rise LDL-P, or if high LDL-P is even a true cardiovascular concern in the context of low / normal sdLDL. Then, there are the outliers who don't seem to experience the rise in LDL-P with higher SFA. I've read that you might see LDL-receptor down-regulation in the context of a higher SFA intake, but I've also read that this can happen with a higher dietary cholesterol intake (which doesn't necessarily seem to be the case?) Conversely, you seem to see LDL-receptor up-regulation in the context of a higher carb diet.
To further confound the variables, it's unclear what the net effect would be if this SFA is coming from foods like herb-rich curry with fermented dairy, fibrous vegetables, and something like a Resveratrol / Grape Seed Extract / CoQ10 / Fish Oil supplement, where inflammation shouldn't be as much of an issue and lipid oxidation shouldn't be as much of an issue... as this is clearly a much different scenario than a high SFA intake from say, palm-oil fried potatoes with bread pudding, which tends to be closer to the diets examined when you see a "high saturated fat diet" being studied (particularly with animals.)
It's also not exactly clear whether carbs/insulin really promote inflammation in the context of a healthy, active metabolism. Chris Masterjohn also has a great article "Sugar is the Ultimate Antioxidant and Insulin Will Make You Younger": https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/05/ ... idant-and/
It's quite the rabbit hole the further you dig. The best guidelines I can really stand behind are to simply "Eat Real Food." Best of luck with your paper!
Ultimately, I believe SFA is condemned for E4's due its propensity to increase LDL-P. SFA is a rather large blanket though, as fats like stearic acid are metabolized similar to oleic acid, like you would find in olive oil, and C8 & C10 fats are different beasts yet (seemingly largely increasing HDL in my experience.) C12 seems quite a bit different yet. The newer French diet recommendations mention "Saturated FA cannot be regarded as a unit because they differ in their structure, their metabolism, their cell functions and even their deleterious effects in case of excess. From now on it is advisable to distinguish the subgroup of lauric, myristic, and palmitic acids which is atherogenic in the event of excess."
I like the recommendations here to limit lauric + myristic + palmitic acids to 8% of total energy, without necessarily going after total SFA. I think this is a reasonable target, even into a high fat diet. Perhaps this is similar to avoiding excess sugar or fructose without necessarily going after all carbohydrates.
The jury's still out on whether you're generally seeing a rise in sdLDL with that SFA associated rise LDL-P, or if high LDL-P is even a true cardiovascular concern in the context of low / normal sdLDL. Then, there are the outliers who don't seem to experience the rise in LDL-P with higher SFA. I've read that you might see LDL-receptor down-regulation in the context of a higher SFA intake, but I've also read that this can happen with a higher dietary cholesterol intake (which doesn't necessarily seem to be the case?) Conversely, you seem to see LDL-receptor up-regulation in the context of a higher carb diet.
To further confound the variables, it's unclear what the net effect would be if this SFA is coming from foods like herb-rich curry with fermented dairy, fibrous vegetables, and something like a Resveratrol / Grape Seed Extract / CoQ10 / Fish Oil supplement, where inflammation shouldn't be as much of an issue and lipid oxidation shouldn't be as much of an issue... as this is clearly a much different scenario than a high SFA intake from say, palm-oil fried potatoes with bread pudding, which tends to be closer to the diets examined when you see a "high saturated fat diet" being studied (particularly with animals.)
It's also not exactly clear whether carbs/insulin really promote inflammation in the context of a healthy, active metabolism. Chris Masterjohn also has a great article "Sugar is the Ultimate Antioxidant and Insulin Will Make You Younger": https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2016/05/ ... idant-and/
It's quite the rabbit hole the further you dig. The best guidelines I can really stand behind are to simply "Eat Real Food." Best of luck with your paper!
Re: Forrests, Trees, and Saturated Fat
Naughtyferret, unfortunately for you, you have unsuspectingly fallen into the biggest bottomless rabbit hole of our discussions. I understand your frustration. Now just imagine that you were a 50 or 60 year old e4/4 who has to eat something? Can you feel our distress?
The truth is, we just don't know for sure.
Why don't you present the controversy for your paper? And present how we are faced with hugely difficult choices?
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
The truth is, we just don't know for sure.
Why don't you present the controversy for your paper? And present how we are faced with hugely difficult choices?
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
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floramaria
- Support Team
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- Location: Northern New Mexico
Re: Forrests, Trees, and Saturated Fat
NaughtyFerret,
I had the same thought as Stavia had about your paper. I doubt that as a student though are expected to resolve for once and for all something that is simply not settled by existing scientific research. You will still have very solid evidence to present regarding simple carbs, sugars, and hydrogenated fats. There is much you can present. and then honestly saying that on saturated fats, there is not conclusive evidence seems like a good approach. As an example, you could cite one study that says saturated fats are fantastic for ApoE4, and another that says just the opposite; that would certainly show that you have done your research.
I had the same thought as Stavia had about your paper. I doubt that as a student though are expected to resolve for once and for all something that is simply not settled by existing scientific research. You will still have very solid evidence to present regarding simple carbs, sugars, and hydrogenated fats. There is much you can present. and then honestly saying that on saturated fats, there is not conclusive evidence seems like a good approach. As an example, you could cite one study that says saturated fats are fantastic for ApoE4, and another that says just the opposite; that would certainly show that you have done your research.
Functional Medicine Certified Health Coach
IFM/ Bredesen Training in Reversing Cognitive Decline (March 2017)
ReCODE 2.0 Health Coach with Apollo Health
IFM/ Bredesen Training in Reversing Cognitive Decline (March 2017)
ReCODE 2.0 Health Coach with Apollo Health
Re: Forrests, Trees, and Saturated Fat
Nicely said Floramaria
And then share your work with us? We'd love to see it.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
And then share your work with us? We'd love to see it.
Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
Re: Forrests, Trees, and Saturated Fat
I quite agree with the general advise emerging - the current state is that we just don't (yet) know.
Meanwhile, we all have to eat, and my own current strategy is likely closest to MarkR's, but also well expressed by apod - "just eat real food." I think there's a lot of common ground there that can allow us all to move forward even though we don't have great answers (yet).
As such, I choose to include grassfed/pasture-produced animal fat products as "real food" which contains varying measures of saturated fat in their complex array of other fat fractions and amazing naturally occurring and highly bio-available micronutrients. When I eat such products, I eat the fat with intent (i.e. I don't trim it). Conversely, I avoid industrially produced animal products on the hypothesis that their unnatural fat fractionation and missing micronutrients are at least not as good for my health, and if I do it (only when eating out), I trim the fat.
But I totally understand that others choose to avoid animal fat for fear of SFA's - the question remains open.
Russ
Meanwhile, we all have to eat, and my own current strategy is likely closest to MarkR's, but also well expressed by apod - "just eat real food." I think there's a lot of common ground there that can allow us all to move forward even though we don't have great answers (yet).
As such, I choose to include grassfed/pasture-produced animal fat products as "real food" which contains varying measures of saturated fat in their complex array of other fat fractions and amazing naturally occurring and highly bio-available micronutrients. When I eat such products, I eat the fat with intent (i.e. I don't trim it). Conversely, I avoid industrially produced animal products on the hypothesis that their unnatural fat fractionation and missing micronutrients are at least not as good for my health, and if I do it (only when eating out), I trim the fat.
But I totally understand that others choose to avoid animal fat for fear of SFA's - the question remains open.
Russ
Russ
E3/4
Eat whole, real, flavorful food - fresh and in season... and mix it up once in a while.
E3/4
Eat whole, real, flavorful food - fresh and in season... and mix it up once in a while.
