whey(t) a minute! whey's ok?

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naughtyferret
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whey(t) a minute! whey's ok?

Post by naughtyferret »

Hi all -

I'm still suffering through my paper - regressed to full (unbathed, unslept, caffeine-powered) student life with a deadline that is now 48 hours away. two words... not good. but hey ho. It is what it is, i'm doing my best and at the end of the day that is all we can do.

Amidst all of my research I've stumbled upon something I can't seem to make heads or tails of that is more of a personal query as I love my post-run whey-smoothies but have have had them temporarily suspended pending investigation.

Here's what (I think) I know: As 4's we want to keep insulin as low as possible. Whey creates an insulin spike. People tout the benefits of whey and lots of people here seem to use it, but if it raises insulin wouldn't that be a problem? What piece(s) of this puzzle am i missing?
-n/f (4/4)
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Jan
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Re: whey(t) a minute! whey's ok?

Post by Jan »

Here's an interesting study on whey's effect.

Effect of whey on blood glucose and insulin responses to composite breakfast and lunch meals in type 2 diabetic subjects.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=16002802

Conclusions: It can be concluded that the addition of whey to meals with rapidly digested and absorbed carbohydrates stimulates insulin release and reduced postprandial blood glucose excursion after a lunch meal consisting of mashed potatoes and meatballs in type 2 diabetic subjects.
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TheresaB
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Re: whey(t) a minute! whey's ok?

Post by TheresaB »

naughtyferret wrote:As 4's we want to keep insulin as low as possible
The opinion of many very smart people is that an ApoE4’s first priority should be attaining/maintaining insulin sensitivity. Insulin sensitivity is when a small amount of insulin is needed to lower blood sugar (glucose) levels, the body isn’t “overworked” and hasn’t become “resistant.” The lower a person’s average insulin level, the slower the aging process. Insulin sensitivity is an ApoE4’s superpower, insulin resistance (the opposite of insulin sensitivity), is our kryptonite.
naughtyferret wrote: Whey creates an insulin spike.
Let’s back up a bit. The body likes to keep blood glucose levels fairly steady, that’s insulin’s “job.” Foods that spike blood glucose significantly are called high glycemic, these are mainly sugars and starchy, simple carbohydrates.

Whey is a protein. By itself, protein isn’t considered high glycemic, but when the body gets too much protein and can’t use it all, it will convert the protein to glucose, so that can also increase blood glucose levels requiring insulin to respond. Also, if whey protein is packaged in “energy bars” or in “supplement drinks” that contain carbohydrates that will cause an insulin spike.

So whey protein, depending on the form with which you consume it and how much total protein you need, can be okay.

Case solved, right? But wait! There’s more! Let’s dig a little deeper. This goes beyond ApoE4, too much protein, particularly animal protein, can stimulate negative metabolic pathways. Whey is an animal sourced form of protein.

From Dr Joe Mercola’s book, Fat for Fuel,
“…cancer and nearly all other chronic diseases are caused by defective metabolic processes in your mitochondria. This is typically a result of insulin and leptin receptor resistance from too many net carbs and activation of the mTOR metabolic signaling pathway by excessive protein.”
mTOR is key to muscle building, mTOR tells cells to grow and proliferate, while suppressing maintenance functions. When mTOR is not stimulated, the body turns to maintenance and repair processes, such things as autophagy and DNA repair.

Dr Mercola also writes,
“Simulating mTOR by eating large amounts of protein is also one of the quickest ways to suppress cellular and mitochondrial autophagy, which prevents your body from effectively cleaning out debris and damaged cells. Even if you are optimizing everything you can to keep glucose and insulin levels low, eating excessive protein will still activate the mTOR pathway.”
If familiar with Dr Bredesen's protocol, you will recognize that he likes to encourage autophagy to maintain cognitive function.

So now that I’ve scared you about ever eating protein again, let me say that lately I’ve been thinking about ways to increase my protein. You heard that right, increase. Well, sort of. I’m thinking of adding extra protein on the days of my strength work-outs and laying low on the other days, so it should address how much protein my body can effectively use but averaging out to “low” levels in the long run, “low” meaning in comparison to current dietary intake of a typical western diet. In my research for this, I contemplated whey protein, but feel hemp protein is more complete.

This is a comprehensive write-up on hemp protein -- https://ameliakarg.wordpress.com/2011/0 ... n-protein/ In the write-up, the blogger says,
“No other single plant source provides balanced protein nutrition with all the Essential Amino Acids in a favorable ratio for digestibility.”
The below was excerpted from the link. You will note Hemp protein is higher than Whey in all amino acid levels. If you go to the table in the link you may also note that Soy Bean sourced protein has higher levels than Hemp, but soy has many negative aspects to it, I stay away from all soy based products except fermented and even those I keep low.

Amino Acid Hemp Whey Powder
Alanine 1.28 0.61
Arginine 3.1 0.39
Aspartic Acid 2.78 1.49
Cystine 0.41 0.17
Glutamic Acid 4.57 2.4
Glycine 1.14 0.29
Histidine* 0.71 0.29
Isoleucine* 0.98 0.85
Leucine* 1.72 1.4
Lysine* 1.03 1.15
Methionine* 0.58 0.23
Phenylalanine* 1.17 0.49
Proline 1.15 0.43
Serine 1.27 0.64
Threonine* 0.88 1.02
Tryptophan* 0.2 0.25
Tyrosine 0.86 0.47
Valine* 1.28 0.91
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Julie G
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Re: whey(t) a minute! whey's ok?

Post by Julie G »

People tout the benefits of whey and lots of people here seem to use it, but if it raises insulin wouldn't that be a problem? What piece(s) of this puzzle am i missing?
Waves, NF! I'm not sure how you've concluded that whey protein is desirable for E4 carriers or used by many here. (Perhaps I've missed something.) From my perspective, whey protein powder is an evolutionarily novel, processed food product with an abnormal nutrient composition. It's also a derivative of dairy, which in itself is a novel agricultural food, as of 10,000 years ago. Given that we are carriers of the ancestral allele, most folks here lean towards foods that are compatible with our genetic status. Early man certainly ate whatever was available, depending on the geography and time of year; likely lots of plants, roots, insects, and occasional meat or fish. I'm fairly certain that he NEVER tried to wrestle mastodon so that he could milk her. Here's an interesting article outlining the darker side of whey.

I'm eager to hear others' perspectives on this. Best of luck with your project. I hope you'll share it with us.
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Re: whey(t) a minute! whey's ok?

Post by naughtyferret »

Hi all -

Thanks for the info.

@Julie - I did a rubbish job of talking about whey usage.. from reading around - it's a very popular supplement, and as a nutrition student, one that comes up a lot as a good recommendation for clients wanting to loose weight that are currently eating loads of processed and sugary foods as it promotes feelings of satiety (i don't fully agree with this approach, but it is popular). In trying to answer my own question before posting i did search the forums and it seemed as though whey was something used commonly here. I may have not paid close enough attention to the name associate with the posts to note diversity in addition to frequency. I agree with your view that whey is a novelty and not really a 'food', but i'm struggling to get my macro's right.

@TheresaB - more protein is interesting - because that's exactly why i'm asking. I was on a fairly hi protein diet and having amazing results. My workouts were much stronger, i was starting to see muscle definition that i've never had in 40 years - even when running 3-6 marathons a year. I was full. Cravings were gone. 40-45% intake of protein and i could conquer the world.

@all - but according to bredesen and others eating too much protein stimulates all sort of grow-type-things, suppresses clean-up/repair-things... and it all goes to pot. So in the spirit of science i did what any logical n=1 would do and flipped macros for 2 weeks - and for extra measure, i got fat up to 50-60% because i just love avocados, olives, and mackerel that much.

Results have been dreadful. I'm tired. I'm sore. I've got a niggle appearing my lower back and an ache in my hamstring that just won't go. I feel awful and oily on the inside. I'm waking up at 3am with my blood glucose way down, hungry, and unable to go back to sleep despite eating a calorically balanced diet (i track with an HRM through the day, and use fitnessPal, weighing most things to make sure i'm getting enough.)

I'm not sure if this is just keto adapting, or IF when one is physically active they need a different ratio (and by active i mean i have 2 dogs that get walked, yoga every day, weights 3-4 days/week, and a gentle jog keeping HR below 70% 4-5 days a week). Which leads me to another question - if that activity does make the body need more protein does that make it bad for being a 4? As an addendum, my typical daily diet is 8-10 80g portions of green veg through stirfrys, soups, smoothes, salads... no grains/legumues/tubers, no processed foods of any kind, no added sweeteners, no fruit except the odd blueberry, usually accompanied by 10g 100% chocolate, olives, nuts, fish, some chicken or turkey, whey, hemp, olive oil for cooking.... 45% protein = "king of the world!", 50% fat = "blah at best". I have no idea what to do here.

I think i am quickly getting lost inside of my own head. I have put waaaaaaay too much information in to it over the last 2 months.
-n/f (4/4)
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Re: whey(t) a minute! whey's ok?

Post by Orangeblossom »

I wonder if you may have some symptoms of keto flu if you are going very low carb? Kind thoughts. There is a guide to veto flu on the site diet doctor with some tips to help.. I also experienced trouble sleeping with it. Maybe you could introduce some low G1 carbs? I do this in combination with intermittent fasting and seems better for me than full keto.
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Re: whey(t) a minute! whey's ok?

Post by SGW811 »

I have the very same question regarding whey protein! I work out vigorously every day (aerobic daily, weight training 4x week) and am largely vegetarian so thought protein bars and shakes would be good for me. But stumbled across the research that is confusing to me and seems to say that whey protein increases blood sugar levels and insulin resistance. So I just asked my doctor to order blood work for me to test my sugars and IR. If the protein supplements have been detrimental, I'm assuming it will show up in the bloodwork. I'm so frustrated that I tried to make a healthy change and may, instead, have been doing something harmful. Any and all info from those who understand this better than I, will be helpful.
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Re: whey(t) a minute! whey's ok?

Post by Vikingman »

Naughtyferret,

Any updates from 3 years ago? I am just starting to look into protein. I have lost 52 lbs and looking skinny. Did you figure out a protein to take? Hemp or Whey? By the way I just saw your post today and was thinking that some of your reactions could be due to other factors. I had a really pad reaction to SMASH fish when I found out my microbiome was having problems with purines.
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Re: whey(t) a minute! whey's ok?

Post by mb00 »

Bumping this post as well. Really curious as to what the general consensus is regarding Whey and its propensity to spike insulin.

In isolation this may be a bad thing, but say we were to consume a whey protein shake with a bowl of steel cut oats, some berries, and 1 soft scrambled egg. Would the combination of these change the calculus? Steel cut oats are rich in β-glucans which have both lipid lowering benefits and glycemic control benefits.
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Re: whey(t) a minute! whey's ok?

Post by artbellio »

I'm really curious as well. I just started my mom (apoe3/4) on grass fed whey powder to help her gain some weight.
I actually started a post about it couple of weeks ago or so, no one responded. 😅
I'm here for my mom (3/4), advanced Alzheimer's , just had a stroke in Nov 2020.
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