saturated fat confusing
Re: saturated fat confusing
All of this is over my head, and some of my friends refer to me as their smartest friend, so that's telling me you guys are brilliant. I think my take away is seeing that my lab results remain really good from what I am doing, why change now. Only going to do saturated fats occasionally.
ApoE 3/4
Re: saturated fat confusing
Orangeblossom,Orangeblossom wrote:I find it interesting this focus on sat fats as the cause of dLDL, when anything else I read mentions it is mainly to do with sugar / carbs.
For example, a typical article
https://www.verywell.com/what-is-small-dense-ldl-698072
Who Has Small, Dense LDL?
Anyone — ranging from young adults to the elderly — can be at risk of developing small, dense LDL particles. It appears that the development of small, dense LDL can be inherited, with an incidence between 35% to 45%. Additionally, lifestyle can also play an important role in the formation of small, dense LDL. People at risk of developing small, dense LDL in the blood include:
Individuals who consume a high amount of carbohydrates in their diet — especially refined sugars.
Those that consume trans fats in their diet.
Anyone who has uncontrolled diabetes.
Individuals who have been diagnosed with metabolic syndrome.
There is a mention of sat fats (lumping them in with trans fats ) but it is not the priority. Anything else i read mentions it is to do with metabolic syndrome and linked with a pattern of high trigs / low HDL.
Certainly no argument that met syn is a HUGE issue in this area. it is that additionally, for E4's (but not others), Gundry has observed clinically that sdLDL and oxLDL can increase in E4's with sat fat. He certainly would not tell you that met syn is not an issue for all of us, E4 or not. So the question for an E4 is getting rid of my met syn enough? It is certainly a huge step in the right direction.
Tincup
E3,E4
E3,E4
Re: saturated fat confusing
I just got a VAPS test done for the first time. And a Cardio IQ as well as a lot of other labs. Mixed results. I don’t have enough tests to show the whole picture, but looks like my genes are not helping with the argument for high consumption of animal saturated fats even though the hsCRP is almost optimal. Too many small and medium particle LDL and not enough large particle. Decent levels of omega 3/ omega 6, statin is helping numbers. While I’m doing much better than last fall, I have so much more to do to plug up enough of the 36 holes. Feels like sometimes, it’s all a race to repair a horrible leaky roof all the while a flooding rain is in the forecast. Just got to keep plugging away. Dr. Gundry’s diet may help to close up a lot more holes.
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Re: saturated fat confusing
I suppose to control for the other dietary changes Dr Gundry looked at a control group with his protocol plus sat fats and without, as this would be required to see if it was not the other changes making the difference? This is often a problem with research papers on sat fats as they look at them in the context of a SAD and then conclude the sat fats are the problem. Really the problem was the overall diet!
I don't have a more detailed lipids panel but with sat fats (low carb) I have high HDL, low trigs and low LDL so am not too worried. The ration of trigs to HDL is good in particular. (0.27) Which I understand is important. Overall LDL was 73 mg/dl, HDL 108. I'm 3/4.
This article might also be if interest about particle size or number, being important.
https://peterattiamd.com/the-straight-d ... ol-part-v/
I don't have a more detailed lipids panel but with sat fats (low carb) I have high HDL, low trigs and low LDL so am not too worried. The ration of trigs to HDL is good in particular. (0.27) Which I understand is important. Overall LDL was 73 mg/dl, HDL 108. I'm 3/4.
This article might also be if interest about particle size or number, being important.
https://peterattiamd.com/the-straight-d ... ol-part-v/
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Re: saturated fat confusing
I am apoe 3/4. I am beginning Dr. Gundry’s diet after I finish reading the book. What I am wondering about is MCT oil and coconut oil. Dr. Bredesen said that apoe4’s should take MCT oil until they are keto adapted. I have been on a low carb (under 60 net carbs most days, always under 80) . I do intermittent fasting for 16 hours a day. Urine strips have indicated for months that I am in mild ketosis most of the time. I am wondering if I should quit using 1 tblsp MCT oil in my morning smoothies? I use coconut oil only for cooking, and occasionally use full fat coconut milk and cream in soups, puddings, etc.. I do have high cholesterol but the fluffy particles and my hdl is 79, up since I started this LCHF diet. No heart disease that I know of. I am 72 years old.
Can someone help me determine what I should eat or not eat? My doctor doesn’t know anything about diet and lifestyle. He only recommends medications for everything.
Can someone help me determine what I should eat or not eat? My doctor doesn’t know anything about diet and lifestyle. He only recommends medications for everything.
Re: saturated fat confusing
This has evolved with Gundry. He's tested for ApoE4 for ~17 years in his patient population. I would say that each patient acts as his/her own control. My wife and I have posted six of our consultation transcripts for our hour long consults as well as our lab results. If you look at the labs, you'll see they are quite extensive.Orangeblossom wrote:I suppose to control for the other dietary changes Dr Gundry looked at a control group with his protocol plus sat fats and without, as this would be required to see if it was not the other changes making the difference? This is often a problem with research papers on sat fats as they look at them in the context of a SAD and then conclude the sat fats are the problem. Really the problem was the overall diet!
I don't have a more detailed lipids panel but with sat fats (low carb) I have high HDL, low trigs and low LDL so am not too worried. The ration of trigs to HDL is good in particular. (0.27) Which I understand is important. Overall LDL was 73 mg/dl, HDL 108. I'm 3/4.
This article might also be if interest about particle size or number, being important.
https://peterattiamd.com/the-straight-d ... ol-part-v/
For example, his position on coconut oil and MCT oil has evolved over time. When we first started with him, getting labs run about this time in 2015, he was OK with with both of these. Then he said probably no on coconut oil and now the jury is still out on MCTs.
He will look at your labs and then suggest, "why don't you do 'x.'" He will note this and then recheck your labs the next time. He told me that 30% of his patients are ApoE4 positive. So it is a pretty good sample size.
He looks at a lot of metrics in the labs. What he has observed is the sdLDL and oxLDL being somewhat elevated in 4's. He has also said the worst offender for 4's, in what he's observed, is cheese.
On the other hand, as a patient, he's also told us to "get our numbers in line and see what we can get away with" (this applies to everything, not just sdLDL). For example, one member here shared a recording of her consult with Gundry. Her sdLDL was 12 mg/dL (target is <30). Gundry really didn't care what she did as it wasn't an issue for her. On our most recent labs, my oxLDL was 28 U/L and the target is <60, the one last July was 30. Hence not a big issue for me either at this time. However I don't eat the coconut or land animal fat except eggs. My wife's oxLDL was 40.
Also, up until this set of labs, Gundry would run an NMR (particle size/count) test on us. He always told us that the purpose of the test was to convince people to take statins. Early on, my wife had an LDL-P around 2300. He could care less. He was much more interested in all of her inflammation markers that were in range as well as sdLDL. He told us there were "East Coast" and "West Coast" factions in the US. There is a lipid forum where a lot of the docs discuss this. He was clearly in the "West Coast" group. He didn't mention names, but I presume Dr. Dayspring is in the East Coast group.
John,johngail5950 wrote:I am apoe 3/4. I am beginning Dr. Gundry’s diet after I finish reading the book. What I am wondering about is MCT oil and coconut oil. Dr. Bredesen said that apoe4’s should take MCT oil until they are keto adapted. I have been on a low carb (under 60 net carbs most days, always under 80) . I do intermittent fasting for 16 hours a day. Urine strips have indicated for months that I am in mild ketosis most of the time. I am wondering if I should quit using 1 tblsp MCT oil in my morning smoothies? I use coconut oil only for cooking, and occasionally use full fat coconut milk and cream in soups, puddings, etc.. I do have high cholesterol but the fluffy particles and my hdl is 79, up since I started this LCHF diet. No heart disease that I know of. I am 72 years old.
Can someone help me determine what I should eat or not eat? My doctor doesn’t know anything about diet and lifestyle. He only recommends medications for everything.
Not that we have this nailed, down, but we've posted what we do as well as our consult transcripts, all linked in this post.
Also, there is a Gundry section in the Wiki.
Tincup
E3,E4
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Re: saturated fat confusing
I too have decided to err on the more cautious side. Of course, that causes me to eat much more saturated fat from animal sources than Tincup, since he and I have different views regarding what is more cautious!Tincup wrote:My wife and I just decided to err on the more cautious side.
Re: saturated fat confusing
Marc,MarcR wrote:I too have decided to err on the more cautious side. Of course, that causes me to eat much more saturated fat from animal sources than Tincup, since he and I have different views regarding what is more cautious!Tincup wrote:My wife and I just decided to err on the more cautious side.
I understand your position. l ate that way from 09-15 and ended up with some calcification on a CAC and carotid arteries. Both were n=1, so unable to determine when the calcium was deposited. Did two resamples of the carotid over 18 months with no change after adopting Gundry's approach. Intend to resample CAC around 3 years. In the meanwhile, l'm not unhappy with oxLDL 50% under target. Many agree that oxLDL is a reasonable surrogate. If CAC is good, may experiment with more sat fat and see what happens.
I certainly don't know what is optimal. In my view, the worst case is that Gundry's approach is more restrictive than necessary. I am comfortable, with the results of the large battery of serum tests we run every six months (as well as how I feel and what I'm able to do physically), that I'm not doing myself a disservice by following the path I'm on.
Also think diet may not be the most important variable in this whole exercise...
Tincup
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Re: saturated fat confusing
Ok, but it doesn't explain why. Why cheese in particular. It makes no sense to me. I do understand that fat in general could increase LDL cholesterol in E4s but don't really understand why certain types of fats more than others would have adverse effects. I think cheese is a great source of calcium and also vitamin K2. Anyway, each to their own. I also think we need to enjoy life and giving up some things we enjoy without specific details and scientific evidence of 'why' is not for me. But we all have to make these decisions for ourselves.
There can be specific beneficial fats in dairy as well https://thebloodsugardiet.com/is-it-ok- ... nd-butter/
Studies have shown cheese to be beneficial in protecting against heart disease as well.
Summary here discussing it from the NHS.
https://www.nhs.uk/news/food-and-diet/e ... roke-risk/
I wish we had more general research and study into fats and APOE4, especially in a non SAD situation. Maybe this will happen, with time. We do need it. In the meantime, I'm going to still eat a range of fats but not in high amounts.
As an aside, is it not concerning not to care about a high particle number in LDL, (see Attia article link earlier) as that seems to be important? Oh, I'm not sure. Seems a lot of mixed messages around cholesterol still (size vs particle number).
There can be specific beneficial fats in dairy as well https://thebloodsugardiet.com/is-it-ok- ... nd-butter/
Studies have shown cheese to be beneficial in protecting against heart disease as well.
Summary here discussing it from the NHS.
https://www.nhs.uk/news/food-and-diet/e ... roke-risk/
I wish we had more general research and study into fats and APOE4, especially in a non SAD situation. Maybe this will happen, with time. We do need it. In the meantime, I'm going to still eat a range of fats but not in high amounts.
As an aside, is it not concerning not to care about a high particle number in LDL, (see Attia article link earlier) as that seems to be important? Oh, I'm not sure. Seems a lot of mixed messages around cholesterol still (size vs particle number).
Re: saturated fat confusing
The cheese is Gundry's clinical observation for 4's and their tests as I previously explained how he operates. May be the A1 issue.Orangeblossom wrote:Ok, but it doesn't explain why. Why cheese in particular. It makes no sense to me. I do understand that fat in general could increase LDL cholesterol in E4s but don't really understand why certain types of fats more than others would have adverse effects. I think cheese is a great source of calcium and also vitamin K2. Anyway, each to their own. I also think we need to enjoy life and giving up some things we enjoy without specific details and scientific evidence of 'why' is not for me. But we all have to make these decisions for ourselves.
There can be specific beneficial fats in dairy as well https://thebloodsugardiet.com/is-it-ok- ... nd-butter/
Studies have shown cheese to be beneficial in protecting against heart disease as well.
Summary here discussing it from the NHS.
https://www.nhs.uk/news/food-and-diet/e ... roke-risk/
I wish we had more general research and study into fats and APOE4, especially in a non SAD situation. Maybe this will happen, with time. We do need it. In the meantime, I'm going to still eat a range of fats but not in high amounts.
As an aside, is it not concerning not to care about a high particle number in LDL, (see Attia article link earlier) as that seems to be important? Oh, I'm not sure. Seems a lot of mixed messages around cholesterol still (size vs particle number).
Yes it woiuld be nice to have more specific studies with E4's.
Attia is in the Dayspring camp.
I can't tell you who is correct, just reporting Gundry's position.
Likewise with my discussion with Marc & Russ. Like me, they are both engineers. They are both very bright and I respect both of them very much. I can't say that my approach is optimal. Irish Engineer, Ivor Cummins, who is my friend and blogs as Thefatemporor has looked at a zillion papers. His conclusion is that hyperinsulinemia is primary and the LDL is just a bystander. He is a 3/4 as is his wife. Unfortunately most of the studies do not address E4 status. His benefactor Irish Entrepreneur, David Bobbit, is also 3/4. David financed The Widowmaker movie which is a documentary about calcium scanning. It can be watched for $1.10 here. Ivor addresses the E4 issue in his and Jeff Gerber's recent book. However much of the E4 material comes from me.
Tincup
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