Can I kill myself with spinach?

[mike]

By replacing our starchy carbs with non-starchy "healthy" vegetables could we accidentally be doing more harm than good.

I eat a heavy animal protein diet, and I do not have ANY intestinal issues... Can someone point to articles that show eating animal protein is unhealthy? Particularly for folks who have ApoE4 - either one or two?

[Julie G]

I eat a heavy animal protein diet, and I do not have ANY intestinal issues... Can someone point to articles that show eating animal protein is unhealthy? Particularly for folks who have ApoE4 - either one or two?

I'm no expert, Mike, but off the top of my head I can think of two ways in which excess animal protein could be detrimental for us.

-Gluconeogenesis, or the process by which excess protein is turned into glucose. Given the enormous amount of protein you eat and your diabetes DX, this could be a real issue for you. E4 carriers are even more susceptible to elevated glycemic markers given our early reduction of cerebral glucose utilization aggravated by insulin resistance.

-mTor Activation, which is associated with decreased longevity and cancer. Dr. Ron Rosedale describes this pathway here. Our genotype is already inversely correlated with longevity. I would be hesitant to further hasten that process.

[PBW]

Quick update on my post concerning oxalic acid, kidney stones. I am not sure currently anyone dies of kidney stones ..
6 years ago I was strictly following Dr WAhl's diet. I enjoyed 7-8 cups of kale, spinach and other greens daily in addition to almonds and almond butter on apples for snacks. I also ate grass fed meat and wild caught fish 3oz portions daily. After the 3rd year of blood in my urine(invisible to naked eye) I sought the advice of a urologist...no cancer but 8mmx12mm stone in the lower lobe of my left kidney. I had no other symptoms or discomfort?????? A Lithotripsy and another procedure to pull the remaining stone debris out(2 weeks I hope to never experience again) I changed my diet to reduce the oxalate rich foods(spinach, kale, almonds in any form), but more importantly I strictly adhere to 3 liters of water daily(tough but am used to it now) Over the last 2 years I have added occasional spinach and a lot more kale still no almonds, potatoes,rhubard, etc) I never overload in high oxalates in any one day....I had a scare a few weeks ago and thought I had another kidney stone....turned out to be appendicitis!
So my caution is drink lots of water especially on those days your diet is heavy in oxalic acid. No mixing bowls of kale and spinach salad with almonds for dinner after smoothy with spinach, kale and fruit with powdered protein for breaking 16 hour fast. When I go in, I goal in!!!!!! Happy eating!!!!!

[mike]

Gluconeogenesis, or the process by which excess protein is turned into glucose. Given the enormous amount of protein you eat and your diabetes DX, this could be a real issue for you. E4 carriers are even more susceptible to elevated glycemic markers given our early reduction of cerebral glucose utilization aggravated by insulin resistance.

Julie, I would be curious on your opinion of the following talk by Dr. Benjamin Bikman titled 'Insulin vs. Glucagon: The relevance of dietary protein' - https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... Runc8Ui8e4

Or this article titled 'Protein Controversies in Diabetes' - http://journal.diabetes.org/diabetesspe ... /pg132.htm

From the article:

Perhaps 50–60% of protein goes through the process of gluconeogenesis in the liver, but virtually none of this glucose enters into the general circulation.

and

To understand this process of gluconeogenesis and the question of why protein does not affect blood glucose levels, it is helpful to briefly review the metabolism of dietary proteins. The majority of protein is digested, and the amino acids not used for gut fuel are metabolized in the intestinal mucosal cells and transported by the portal vein to the liver for protein synthesis or gluconeogenesis.12 In the liver, nonessential amino acids are largely deaminated, and the amino group (nitrogen) removed is converted into urea for excretion in the urine.13 It has been shown that in subjects without and with mild type 2 diabetes, ~50–70% of a 50-g protein meal is accounted for over an 8-hour period by deamination in the liver and intestine and synthesis to urea.14 It has been assumed that the remaining carbon skeletons from the nonessential amino acids are available for glucose synthesis, which would then enter into the general circulation.

[Julie G]

Perhaps 50–60% of protein goes through the process of gluconeogenesis in the liver, but virtually none of this glucose enters into the general circulation.

This would be an easy assumption to make in someone with low glycemic numbers. I'm not sure it applies to you. As a T2D, you have a decreased physiological need to promote gluconeogenesis, right? You already have plenty of circulating glucose in your blood despite your low carb diet. From the Bikman talk, around the 30 min. mark, he discusses folks starting from a metabolically unhealthy state and recommends that they initially MINIMIZE protein (and make up the difference with additional fat) until they can restore insulin sensitivity. Given that you've been stalled on your current high animal protein plan, I suspect this recommendation may apply to your situation.

[mike]

This is quoted from a summary of literature done for a diabetic journal, so I'm guessing they're taking my diabetes into account. Also, it is my understanding that by eliminating carbs, I'm actually promoting gluconeogenesis, since that is the only way my body gets glucose.

I also do not consider myself stalled in any way; on my first year on the diet, I concentrated on losing weight (60 lbs) and the next year I worked on putting on muscle and rebuilding my stamina. Now that I'm what I was pre stroke, I'm now trying to lose the last 25 or so pounds of fat. I'm starting out with a water fast and almost finished day seven. Everything about diabetes seems to come down to losing weight and adding muscle and that's what I've been doing.

[Julie G]

This is quoted from a summary of literature done for a diabetic journal, so I'm guessing they're taking my diabetes into account. Also, it is my understanding that by eliminating carbs, I'm actually promoting gluconeogenesis, since that is the only way my body gets glucose.

But, do you NEED to promote gluconeogenesis? Given the already high levels in your blood, I would think you have that covered.

About two years ago, I quit my various meds and started a keto diet and have since lost 60 lbs and almost down to normal weight. Blood sugars are still high though. I've done a couple of water fasts about a year ago of 13 and 17 days. I'm thinking of trying one more to see if I can get rid of the fat around my liver.

Apologies, Mike. This made me think you were at a "stuck" place. I'm beyond impressed with your health improvements to date. Let us know if this latest fast gets you to your goal.

[mike]

But, do you NEED to promote gluconeogenesis? Given the already high levels in your blood, I would think you have that covered.

The brain, at least needs some glucose. From that second article, gluconeogenesis is not supply driven but rather demand driven. The body will use what protein it needs to make needed glucose if there are no other sources. My sugars are high, but lower than when I was eating a more typical ADA diet and taking insulin. After six days of fasting, my blood sugar finally dropped below 100. I will not get to goal on this fast, but hopefully half way.

[SoCalGuy]

I was eating too much raw spinach and got small kidney stones. They are indeed high in oxalates. You can avoid oxalates to a large degree by boiling the spinach. There's an additional thing to consider: don't re-heat spinach, because it can become toxic. As with any other particular food item, moderation is key. Better to eat a variety of greens.

This is what I do. My daily salad is a mix of romaine, spinach and red lettuce. My goal is to reduce the risk of DEATH BY GREENS while still getting those nutrients from the spinach.

[PBW]

I am always curious if supplements ( Vital Reds, Mercola's greens, et al) that contain greens nutrients also have high amounts of oxalic acid or if somehow it is reduced or eliminated through the process of creating the supplement. I have avoided them because I don't have that answer. Anyone have any input on the amount of oxalic acid in green supplements ?