Dr. Gabrielle Lyon - Benefits of Higher Protein

[Genesis322]

Count me as a lean mean and sometimes green fasting high-protein machine. I've never felt so healthy as on the days when I went for a long walk and only had a single catfish filet a few hours before bed.

I'm still new here so I don't know how much of it is because of the low lipid clearance being 4/4 or perhaps also having an extremely poor methylation pathway, but my body feels fully expressed on very long enduring treks on foot with very little food and high proportions of protein. Within the past few months I've been eating very high lean protein while doing drop sets at the gym and hours of stairclimbing, making significant strength and size gains. Eating more fat or carbs can feel interesting and good at first but later I regret it and I only feel like my head has been messed with. High protein gives me clarity.

The main obstacle as far as I can see are time and self-esteem, or the belief that I am worthy of all this effort. It's fascinating and complex the way the mind works… someone can work so hard on something and achieve the reward, and still not feel they are worthy of it. Something is off that has nothing to do with food or lifestyle.

I am 34 and male. Fitness and nutrition have always been difficult for me. I try to follow the advice of experts and it never seems to click. Eat a lot of leafy greens? Those aren't enough for me because I methylate so poorly. Eat whole grains? I gain bodyfat slowly instead of quickly and then don't even enjoy it. Eat organic? We live in a world with organic Doritos so I do not know what any of that means.

For me it always comes back to lean white fish (catfish and tilapia), egg whites, and chicken. Mix it up with some herbs and spices. Make a green smoothie, broccoli and cauliflower. Supplements so I can stay alert, although an extended fast and an exciting stimulating task works just as well. I have been adjusting to a lot of different methylation supplements, trying to find the best types and amounts and what time of day are good so I can work efficiently under normal circumstances and not feel the need to run out the door on some exciting adventure.

I think it's plainly obvious that I have a hunter-gatherer body made for running animals to death over the course of an entire day, or spending a whole day walking up and down a mountain to a source of fish. I am not at all adapted to modern lifestyles and have to put in long hours of physical exertion and conscious effort to feel appropriate. Again the main challenge is self-esteem. Do I give up and think it's hopeless, go to the drive-thru after work and just order a bunch of everything so I can spare myself the feeling of having to work for anything, or do I accept myself as different and worthy of the effort to preserve and advance my life and happiness, a man out of time? It's a choice I face every moment of every day, made more difficult by the possibility that there really is not a whole I can do to preserve and advance my life. Maybe I will overwork my kidneys with all this protein. Or maybe I can heal my kidneys with regular fasting.

Anyways, sorry for the musing but there's very little doubt on the benefits of high amounts of lean protein in my life. I may be one of the rare ones, but I still have a voice and I might as well use it for those who'll listen here. Whether it's of benefit to someone else is up to them to learn, but most of us here have "old genes" for an old way of life, and life used to be nasty, brutish, and short. Extending a life with those genes takes courage.

[circular]

Thanks for this. Since I don't know what to believe, I'm trying to have it both ways. Aiming at about 1.3 gm protein per kg of body weight but trying to make sure animal sources are < or = to half of that. I glance at the methionine total on cronometer when I do one of those nutrition reports (averaging the days I reported) and if it averages around 1 gram (for my 60ish grams of protein) I'm happy.

Hi Martha, just wanted to let you know, if you haven't had time to listed to the interviews with Dr. Lyon's, she is emphasizing that we need more than 1.3 gm per kg (unfortunately I forget the amount, but 2 or I think even 2.5 gm per kg? ... gotta listen again). She is also emphasizing that plant protein is a poor source of the critical leucine that is what triggers mTOR to begin laying down new muscle tissue. As an example it would take about nine cups of quinoa to get what a chicken breast will deliver (think I recall that right). Also, among animal proteins, fish, a favorite among many here and for some very good reasons, is not only lower in protein than other animal meat protein sources, but it's also lower in the leucine. I am seriously beginning to worry that the low protein and make it fish/seafood approach could backfire by triggering muscle degeneration over time which will fuel other adverse effects. Now some people, maybe particularly men, may have hormonal and other growth factors that mitigate their need for the higher protein. They may have find muscle mass on a low protein/low leucine diet. I'm not sure how that would work.

I was trying 25 mg goat whey isolate (high in leucine) for several days to supplement my animal sources (not inclined to up read meat and get tired of poultry). I started having some symptoms but other things were going on so not sure if it was the whey. I went off it and am trying to get my baseline 'feeling good' back and then I will try the whey again.

In the meantime, I just found this abstract:

Effect of protein intake beyond habitual intakes following resistance training on cardiometabolic risk disease parameters in pre-conditioned older women

There was a significant group-by-time interaction (P < 0.05) for lean soft tissue (LST), total cholesterol/high density lipoprotein ratio (TC/HDL) and volume of load (VL), in which HP group presented greater improvements when compared to LP group (LST: +3.8% vs +2.0%; TC/HDL: −11.8% vs −2.9%; VL: 45.4% vs 35.4%)

I'm really questioning the long-term effects of Dr. Gundry's advice to drive down protein intake and the notion that mTOR is necessarily an enemy. I'd like to hear the anti-mTOR camp respond to Dr. Lyon's saying that chronically elevated mTOR is bad, but if you don't eat for 3-4 hours between meals it comes down and resets. I do think we need to avoid going too high, but chasing extremes in biochemistry seems to always backfire in the long run.

I haven't read this paper. It was referenced at ConsumerLab.com who says it shows that extra whey protein doesn't help in the absence of resistance training. The study supplemented whey protein for two years:

Two-Year Whey Protein Supplementation Did Not Enhance Muscle Mass and Physical Function in Well-Nourished Healthy Older Postmenopausal Women

Conclusion: This study showed that in protein-replete, healthy, ambulant, postmenopausal older women, 30 g/d of extra protein did not improve the maintenance of muscle mass or physical function despite evidence of deterioration in muscle measurements in the upper limb.
...

One possible explanation for the lack of effects on muscle measurements in the present study could be the high habitual protein intake of the study population. In the Health, Aging, and Body Composition (Health ABC) study, which examined 2066 American men and women aged 70–79 y, energy-adjusted protein intake was significantly associated with change in lean body mass over 3 y; losses in lean body mass and appendicular skeletal muscle mass were ∼40% lower in subjects in the highest quintile than they were in those in the lowest quintile of energy-adjusted protein intake (11). The mean protein intake in female subjects in the Health ABC study was 60.9 g/d (0.9 g · kg body weight−1 · d−1), whereas the mean protein intake in the present study was 76 g/d (1.1 g · kg body weight−1 · d−1), which is approaching that of the 5th quintile (1.2 g · kg body weight−1 · d−1) in the Health ABC study. In a study by Alemán-Mateo et al. (15) in nonsarcopenic older adults in which a positive protein intervention effect was observed, the baseline protein intake was estimated to be 0.9 g · kg body weight−1 · d−1, which increased to 1.2 g · kg body weight−1 · d−1 with supplementation. In fact, in our study, appendicular skeletal muscle mass did not change significantly over 2 y in either the protein or the placebo groups (Table 2), although a decrease in muscle area was observed at both upper arm and lower leg. In addition, in our study, we did not find significant interactions between the intervention and baseline protein intake for muscle mass and strength measures at year 1 and year 2, but with the low number of subjects (n = 55; 28.1%) who had a protein intake below the Recommended Dietary Intake of 0.94 g · kg body weight−1 · d−1 for women of this age, our study is not powered to test this hypothesis. It is possible that protein intervention is more effective in older adults with relatively low protein intake and who have more pronounced loss of muscle mass with aging.

Another argument for the lack of effect could be that in our study the intervention was not carried out in combination with resistance training. A meta-analysis published in 2012 summarized the findings of 22 RCTs (680 subjects), and concluded that during prolonged resistance-type training (>6 wk), protein supplementation could increase fat-free mass and 1-repetition maximum leg press strength compared with the placebo group in both younger and older subjects (35). However, it is worth noting that most of the trials included in the meta-analysis (15 of 22) were conducted in men only, and although in younger subjects protein supplementation also led to greater gains in type I and II muscle fiber cross-section area, in older subjects (>50 y), such effects were not observed (35). Since the publication of the meta-analysis, an intervention study in 100 elderly women aged 60–90 y living in retirement villages showed that providing a protein-enriched diet with the use of red meat (160 g cooked) for 4 mo could enhance the effects of resistance training on lean body mass and muscle strength (36). The baseline protein intake of the abovementioned study was 1.1 g · kg body weight−1 · d−1 (36), similar to that of our study. However, the characteristics of women living in retirement villages might be different from those the women from our study. These women were community-living, their age range was wider (60–90 compared with 70–80 y), and 44% had a history of using hormone-replacement therapy, which has been shown to play a role in preserving muscle in postmenopausal women (37).
...

In conclusion, in healthy ambulant women with a baseline protein intake well above the current Australian recommended Estimated Average Requirement of 0.75 g · kg body weight−1 · d−1, we found that extra protein of 30 g/d did not enhance muscle mass and physical function, despite some evidence of deterioration in upper arm and calf muscle area and hand-grip strength. Taking together the findings of our study and previous trials, it seems the effectiveness of protein intervention on muscle health in older adults would depend on participants' nutrition status and habitual protein intake, whether carried out in combination with resistance training, and the type and amount of protein intervention. Therefore, whereas protein intervention has the potential to improve muscle health in older people, the most effective way of intervention and the population most sensitive to the intervention deserve further study.

I wonder if high protein in a low glucose environment allows for higher growth factors (mTOR, IGF-1, iron ...) to help us without the deleterious effects of the inflammatory glucose bathed environment. We have discussed here before that high fat may only be bad in the context of high glucose. Maybe it's the same with protein?

[circular]

I think it's plainly obvious that I have a hunter-gatherer body made for running animals to death over the course of an entire day, or spending a whole day walking up and down a mountain to a source of fish. I am not at all adapted to modern lifestyles and have to put in long hours of physical exertion and conscious effort to feel appropriate. Again the main challenge is self-esteem. Do I give up and think it's hopeless, go to the drive-thru after work and just order a bunch of everything so I can spare myself the feeling of having to work for anything, or do I accept myself as different and worthy of the effort to preserve and advance my life and happiness, a man out of time? It's a choice I face every moment of every day, made more difficult by the possibility that there really is not a whole I can do to preserve and advance my life. Maybe I will overwork my kidneys with all this protein. Or maybe I can heal my kidneys with regular fasting.

Anyways, sorry for the musing but there's very little doubt on the benefits of high amounts of lean protein in my life. I may be one of the rare ones, but I still have a voice and I might as well use it for those who'll listen here. Whether it's of benefit to someone else is up to them to learn, but most of us here have "old genes" for an old way of life, and life used to be nasty, brutish, and short. Extending a life with those genes takes courage.

Genesis I love this! I relate to so much of it too, as I suspect many others here do in their own ways. I definitely relate to being a human out of time. I find it terribly lonely at times, like what the h*ll is with all these CARS! Whoosh, whoosh, honk, screech ... WTF where's my tree hollow! (Hope I didn't infringe our Terms with that 'language'.) I wish I could relate to the constant motion you can achieve, but alas, one of the ways I'm a misfit is having systemic issues that prevent as much movement as I want. Please think of me as you roam the Earth so assertively and maybe my muscles will grow a little more We need t-shirts and badges and vanity plates ...

[Genesis322]

Genesis I love this! I relate to so much of it too, as I suspect many others here do in their own ways. I definitely relate to being a human out of time. I find it terribly lonely at times, like what the h*ll is with all these CARS! Whoosh, whoosh, honk, screech ... WTF where's my tree hollow! (Hope I didn't infringe our Terms with that 'language'.) I wish I could relate to the constant motion you can achieve, but alas, one of the ways I'm a misfit is having systemic issues that prevent as much movement as I want. Please think of me as you roam the Earth so assertively and maybe my muscles will grow a little more We need t-shirts and badges and vanity plates ...

I know what you mean about cars! For most of my adult life I have not owned one and it puzzled, amused, and concerned people in my 20s when they found out I was walking five miles home from a night out and I'd tell them it was nothing. It wouldn't even burn off the cheeseburger I just ate. And isn't it how people lived for most of history? They walked everywhere without the need to get home in time to watch a TV show.

My health can deteriorate very rapidly if I let it and indeed I have let it before so I have had to overcome morbid obesity. There was a time when I had to start with just walking to the end of the block and back. People joke that that's all they can do but I mean it literally. I would have a pain my ankle or knee or some other thing that made me turn back, but I was still able to go a little more each day and eventually the end of the block was the end of the city and then the end of the county. I don't know what systemic issues you have in particular but I feel if you keep exploring you will find a way to move. You have an explorer's instinct.

[circular]

Here's a paper supporting why Dr. Lyon and others emphasize higher protein and particularly higher leucine and other BCAA requirements than what has been believed, not that I understand it.

Branched-Chain Amino Acid Requirements in Healthy Adult Human Subjects

[circular]

My health can deteriorate very rapidly if I let it and indeed I have let it before so I have had to overcome morbid obesity. There was a time when I had to start with just walking to the end of the block and back. People joke that that's all they can do but I mean it literally. I would have a pain my ankle or knee or some other thing that made me turn back, but I was still able to go a little more each day and eventually the end of the block was the end of the city and then the end of the county. I don't know what systemic issues you have in particular but I feel if you keep exploring you will find a way to move. You have an explorer's instinct.

Wow! Nice to have you here among the pantheon of people who have rejuvenated their health Genesis! I find your story and encouragement inspiring, and on more than one occasion lately I have extended my walk a bit while thinking of your encouragement. Thanks! I do have considerable limitations to taking this notion very far, but I've finally found an excellent PT who knows what to do with me. It's making me more hopeful than I've been in a long time about how much fitness I can regain, while knowing it won't take me to Timbuktu either. I will have to check a map and see exactly where my city's edge is and see if I can get there. As luck would have it, I think it's reasonable walking distance from home but would still be more than I've been able to do in recent years. I love the thought of saying 'I walked to the city's edge today'. I'll let you know here when it happens!

I definitely have a explorer's/roamer's instinct! Never take the same route over and over. Always want to know what's around the next bend.

Keep up the great work!

[circular]

Was just looking into B1/thiamine more. According to Quest, it's not just protein absorption it helps with, it's specifically the branch chain amino acids, ie, those critical for muscle growth that our bodies don't produce. Dr. Bredesen recommends the RBC B1 test over the plasma one.

[floramaria]

do I accept myself as different and worthy of the effort to preserve and advance my life and happiness, a man out of time?

Greetings, Genesis322. Thanks for you heartfelt post, revealing your struggles. You have a keen mind, a fit body and are reflective and brave enough to look at your own psyche. I found it very moving that twice within your post you revealed that you struggle with self-esteem. That is both brave and honest, two commendable qualities. You have alot going for you.
In much the same way that you have been able to build a strong body, I thoroughly believe that you can also develop unshakeable self-esteem through "exercising it", in other words, through practice. There is alot of great info floating around in the world about how we, as humans, naturally have a negativity bias which was a benefit to us for survival but not so good for our happiness. For me that held true; it took conscious intention to build self esteem. You are certainly not an outlier in struggling with this. Just more honest.
Barbara Fredrickson's work on happiness could illuminate some of this for you if you are interested.

I hope you'll embrace your efforts to find self-acceptance and a deep sense of your worth and to advance and preserve your life and happiness. Undoubtedly you are worth it.

Sending very best wishes to you.
floramaria

[Genesis322]

In much the same way that you have been able to build a strong body, I thoroughly believe that you can also develop unshakeable self-esteem through "exercising it", in other words, through practice. There is alot of great info floating around in the world about how we, as humans, naturally have a negativity bias which was a benefit to us for survival but not so good for our happiness. For me that held true; it took conscious intention to build self esteem. You are certainly not an outlier in struggling with this. Just more honest.

Thank you very much for your kind words. This advice in particular resonates a great deal with me and what I've read as well. The most influential and impressive book I've read so far on the topic is The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem by Nathaniel Branden. He's very clear and precise in his definition of self-esteem and outlines six practices which will according to him inevitably lead to a high level. It is almost mathematical, like a theory of physics. It's a theory of self-esteem so abstract that it could predictably apply to aliens on other planets, artificial intelligence, or beings from other dimensions—anything that experiences conscious self-awareness, for all six practices are willful and regular acts of consciousness. I found it very fascinating.

I haven't read the works of Barbara Fredrickson yet but it sounds like it includes a similar theory of self-esteem with empirical findings from happiness studies, a field with a commonly held thesis that people would often prefer to be right about their beliefs than be happy, to the point of contradicting their stated purposes in given situations, which raises the issue of consciousness and the importance of effectively using it. Consciousness really is something to be practiced and strengthened like exercise.

Bringing this back to the topic of protein consumption for us E4s, I have found that a high proportion of protein in my diet has the least negative effect on my consciousness. A high fat diet can feel nice as long as I don't have to use a lot of people's names or recall more information. A carb diet can keep me alert as long as I keep eating the carbs every hour or two, which presents its own problems. On a protein diet I can eat and practice a high level of consciousness later without feeling all that hungry. It's just that I don't experience the same kind of physical pleasure as from eating fat and carbs.

So to practice a sustained level of consciousness, it comes back to protein with some intermittent fasting for me. Although I occasionally long for that sugar rush. You wouldn't believe the different kind of dreams I have after eating a bag of Sour Patch Kids before bed!

Wishing you the best as well.

[floramaria]

Thank you very much for your kind words. This advice in particular resonates a great deal with me and what I've read as well. The most influential and impressive book I've read so far on the topic is The Six Pillars of Self-Esteem by Nathaniel Branden.
.....
I haven't read the works of Barbara Fredrickson yet but it sounds like it includes a similar theory of self-esteem with empirical findings from happiness studies, a field with a commonly held thesis that people would often prefer be right about their beliefs than be happy, to the point of contradicting their stated purposes in given situations, which raises the issue of consciousness and the importance of effectively using it. Consciousness really is something to be practiced and strengthened like exercise.
.

Hi Genesis322. So good to hear from you again. I am not familiar with the work of Nathaniel Branden, but from what you wrote, I imagine I would find it very interesting. Will definitely check it out.
I have heard interviews with Barbara Fredrickson where she talks about her experience of proposing “happiness” as the subject of her doctoral dissertation. It is very funny because that experience was to a large extent a demonstration of the negativity bias. She had a hard time convincing her advisor that happiness warranted in-depth study. Everyone else was studying pathology and studying happinesss and well-being seemed somehow frivolous!

Your experiences as you have tried various macronutrient ratios is also very interesting, and again points to how unique we all are. You are certainly in the best position to know what works for you. I am currently doing moderate protein, maybe 50-ish grams a day, and low carb/very high fat. I love the high fat diet but do miss fresh fruit, especially since now it is ripening on the trees. I am allowing myself some “seasonal deviation” to munch on mulberries!