Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

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jenbehappy
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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby jenbehappy » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:39 pm

Russ wrote:
TheresaB wrote:
In his book, “Plant Paradox” he cautions everyone, regardless of genotype, about beef, pork, and lamb, even grass fed, because of a sugar molecule Neu5c, which our immune systems recognize as foreign leading to an autoimmune attack and because cancer cells use Neu5c to hide from immune cells. He says we have no means of manufacturing Neu5c, but tumor cells contain large amounts of Neu5c, so they got it from the lamb, beef or pork.


Just linking in this prior thread wherein I challenge the merits of Gundry's Neu5Gc argument...

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3041&p=37749&hilit=neu5Gc+jaminet#p37749

From that, and per Paul Jaminet's excellent dive into the topic, it might be a question of concern if you have Hashimoto's. If not, I continue to think this argument is not well founded. For further pushback on this specific Neu5Gc aspect, you might also read Chris Kresser's discussion of the subject in the transcript of a conversation he had with Robb Wolf...

http://robbwolf.com/wp-content/uploads/ ... on-253.pdf

As always, happy to hear further objective insights on this subject, but Gundry's un-cited argument is his book was one of the lowlights in my view. Love the guy and all that he has and is doing, but this is one a few points where I think he needs to either sharpen his case or reconsider it.


Thank you
This is very helpful! :)

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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby tomjef » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:12 pm

I am still perplexed by the shellfish recommendation for apoe. I searched the thread, and read Gundry's book, and I still see no evidence presented for the recommendation. Any help out there? I'm not interested in theories (there was one submitted in this long thread by a poster), just whether Gundry presents any evidence for this claim.
69 year old 4/4

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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby Tincup » Wed Sep 13, 2017 6:50 pm

tomjef wrote:I am still perplexed by the shellfish recommendation for apoe. I searched the thread, and read Gundry's book, and I still see no evidence presented for the recommendation. Any help out there? I'm not interested in theories (there was one submitted in this long thread by a poster), just whether Gundry presents any evidence for this claim.


If you are looking for an RCT, don't bother reading further.

I am a Gundry patient. He considers his patients to be subjects in an ongoing trial. He collects a material amount of data on us. We've posted redacted labs as well as transcripts from 5 consults, all linked here.. Our last consult had ~20 pages of data for each of us from 3 labs. He collects this on all of his patients.

One reason we hired him is that he's been collecting ApoE status for~15 years on everyone and then seeing what happens. What we've observed is if we follow his advice, our numbers come into line. You can argue whether he is collecting the correct data.

He has observed that animal and also (for many E4's) saturated fat from coconut/MCT oil will raise sdLDL-C in E4's. Shellfish are very low in fat (look at the USDA database. Additionally, he mentioned, I believe in one of our consults, but I'm not taking the time to go look, that the cholesterol in shellfish is different. I also recall he's observed that shellfish consumption (specifically crab) will descrease sdLDL-C. As it is, we are near vegan and eat shellfish maybe once a month and my sdLDL-c was 20 mg/dL on my last test.

In this poster, he published results from a series of 978 patients with known CAD who followed his program.

All I can say is it works for me and my wife (a 4/4).
Tincup
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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby TheresaB » Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:31 pm

tomjef wrote:I am still perplexed by the shellfish recommendation for apoe. I searched the thread, and read Gundry's book, and I still see no evidence presented for the recommendation.


Dr Gundry talks about this in his presentation "AHS16 - Steven Gundry - Dietary Management of the Apo E 4" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bfr9RPq0HFg

At about the 11:10 mark he says, "Now shellfish are emphasized as the animal protein of choice, if desired owing to our observed small dense LDL lowering when these foods were added. Particularly crab. Crab is incredibly effective at lowering small dense LDLs and I'll show you some studies about the impact of shellfish on cholesterol in just a minute. "

At about 18:15: "Now how about shellfish and cholesterol? This is one of my most frequent comments about, everybody knows that shellfish raise cholesterol. Now much of this data was generated many, many, many years ago when we could measure cholesterol levels in foods and we only could measure cholesterol but we could not measure the other forms of sterols and in fact shellfish have huge amounts of sterols that actually block and compete with the absorption of cholesterol. And so I use this fact which is well documented in this paper which is ancient in the scheme of things. Look what happened with volunteers."

Attached is a screen shot of the slide Dr Gundry was talking to at this point of his presentation.

"In this diet, which was manipulated by the researchers, oysters, clams, crab, and mussel diets, low in cholesterol and high in omega-3 fatty acids lowered VLDL triglycerides, LDL, and total cholesterol. Squid and shrimp diets did not change blood lipids. The ratio of LDL to HDL cholesterol was decreased on the oyster and muscle diets. Oysters, mussels, and squid diets increased HDL2 cholesterol. And cholesterol absorption was decreased on the oyster, clam, and mussel diets. Now you know why shellfish is my preferred animal protein source for ApoE4. "
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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby floramaria » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:32 pm

TheresaB wrote:
"In this diet, which was manipulated by the researchers, oysters, clams, crab, and mussel diets, low in cholesterol and high in omega-3 fatty acids lowered VLDL triglycerides, LDL, and total cholesterol. Squid and shrimp diets did not change blood lipids. The ratio of LDL to HDL cholesterol was decreased on the oyster and muscle diets. Oysters, mussels, and squid diets increased HDL2 cholesterol. And cholesterol absorption was decreased on the oyster, clam, and mussel diets. Now you know why shellfish is my preferred animal protein source for ApoE4. "

Hi teresa,

Just wondering as I read over the selections you posted if there is a reason scallops are not included. I added them to my diet recently after hearing Dr Gundry was a fan of shell fish. Is there some reason you know of why scallops are not in this list? Thanks.

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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby tomjef » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:22 pm

Tincup and TeresaB, thanks for the info and references. In particular, the American Journal of clinical Nutrition article from 1990 seems to be the source. Here are two abstracts from the journal (unfortunately the full article is behind a paywall).

Am J Clin Nutr. 1990 Jun;51(6):1020-7.
Effects of shellfish consumption on lipoproteins in normolipidemic men.

Childs MT1, Dorsett CS, King IB, Ostrander JG, Yamanaka WK.
Author information
Abstract
Eighteen normolipidemic males were fed six different species of shellfish; each shellfish was fed so that protein in shellfish equalled that in animal foods in the normal diet, with less than one-half of the amount of fat in animal foods allowed for preparation of the shellfish. Oyster, clam, crab, and mussel diets, low in cholesterol and high in n-3 fatty acids, lowered VLDL triglycerides and cholesterol and, except for the mussel diet, LDL and total cholesterol. Squid and shrimp diets, higher in cholesterol and lower in n-3 fatty acids, did not change the blood lipids. The ratio of LDL to HDL cholesterol was decreased on the oyster and mussel diets. Oyster, mussel, and squid diets increased HDL2 cholesterol. Cholesterol absorption was decreased on the oyster, clam, and mussel diets. When consumed with moderate dietary fat restriction, oysters, clams, mussels, and crab appear to be useful in hypolipidemic diets for normolipidemic men.

and

Effects of shellfish consumption on lipoproteins in normolipidemic men
Marian T. Childs, Carol S. Dorsett, Irena B. King, Joyce G. Ostrander and William K. Yamanaka
American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 51.6 (June 1990): p1020.
Listen
Abstract:
Cardiovascular disease has been linked to diets high in saturated fats and cholesterol. The inclusion of shellfish in diets meant to reduce risk of heart disease is controversial, although shellfish are very low in fat, which is believed to be beneficial. Molluscan shellfish (oysters, clams, squid, and mussels) have a large sterol content, but only one-third of the sterols are cholesterol, while crustaceans (shrimp, crabs) contain more cholesterol. The effects of diets rich in individual types of crustaceans or mollusks on plasma lipids (fats) of 18 men with normal plasma lipids were evaluated. The levels of animal-derived proteins and fats were strictly controlled on these diets. None of the shellfish caused increases in plasma cholesterol levels. All of the shellfish except shrimp and squid modified at least two of the blood lipids in ways which are considered to be beneficial. Oyster, clam, mussel, and crab diets were low in cholesterol and high in n-3 (omega-3) fatty acids, which may have health benefits. These diets lowered the levels of VLDL (very-low-density-lipoprotein) triglycerides and cholesterol in the blood. Additionally, all of the above except the mussels lowered total cholesterol and its subfraction, LDL (low-density-lipoprotein) cholesterol. Squid and shrimp diets were higher in cholesterol and lower in n-3 fatty acids, and had no effect on blood lipids. The ratio of LDL to HDL (high-density-lipoprotein) cholesterol decreased significantly in response to oyster and mussel diets, which is thought to be beneficial. Cholesterol absorption from the digestive tract was decreased by oyster, clam, and mussel diets, and this was related to the high levels of non-cholesterol sterols in these mollusks. A subfraction of HDL, HDL2, increased on the oyster, mussel, and squid diets; this is thought to be a healthy change but the reason for it is unclear. The study suggests that mussels, oysters, clams, and crabs are suitable for a diet designed to lower serum lipid levels, while shrimp could not be recommended, and squid should be excluded as well. (Consumer Summary produced by Reliance Medical Information, Inc.)

I believe the point of this 1990 study of 18 normolipidemic men (can't tell their ages from the abstract) was to indicate that certain shellfish (but not all) would not adversely affect lipoproteins, and thus could be considered to be ok and perhaps beneficial for patients who were on cholesterol lowering diets.

There was no reference to APOE status, and I am guessing that the same study on 50-70 year old apoe 4/4 and 3/4 adults with varying starting points for their lipids might show different results.

So my takeaway is that certain shellfish (mussels, oysters, clams, crab) are not on the "no" list with respect to lipoprotein components and may in fact be beneficial in men with normal lipoproteins. I'm not sure I would make these shellfish my main source of animal protein of choice based on this study, however. But I wouldnt avoid them. A different recommendation than Bredesen's SMASH (wild salmon, mackerel, anchovies, sardines, herring).

Thanks for the leads, I was just wondering where the recommendation came from, and now I know.
69 year old 4/4

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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby buck3Maureen » Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:54 pm

I have no opinion one way or the other on Dr. Gundry, but for those that are interested Dr. Gregor had a post yesterday challenging his teaching regarding lectins on his nutritionfacts.org site.

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Re: RE: Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby Stavia » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:13 am

tomjef wrote:I am still perplexed by the shellfish recommendation for apoe. I searched the thread, and read Gundry's book, and I still see no evidence presented for the recommendation. Any help out there? I'm not interested in theories (there was one submitted in this long thread by a poster), just whether Gundry presents any evidence for this claim.
There is no published, peer reviewed evidence for this.
Gundry reports that he observes reduction in sdLDL with this, however I am not sure how much of what he does is single interventions.
I personally am neutral towards this theory until there is more evidence for or against it.
I do eat local mussels once or twice a week or so. Not because of Gundry, but because it is an easily obtained, cheap, local, "free range" source of low saturated fat protein.

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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby TheresaB » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:00 am

floramaria wrote:Just wondering as I read over the selections you posted if there is a reason scallops are not included


I have no insight as to why scallops were excluded. I have heard that what are sold as scallops are sometimes just cookie-cuttered out of a whitefish. Since Dr Gundry prefers shellfish, the cookie cutter version probably wouldn’t be desirable, so just make sure they are the "real deal."

buck3Maureen wrote: I have no opinion one way or the other on Dr. Gundry, but for those that are interested Dr. Gregor had a post yesterday challenging his teaching regarding lectins on his nutritionfacts.org site.


All I can say is, we removed major sources of lectins from our diet and my subsequent blood test showed that my inflammation markers all WENT DOWN! I’ll take that! My husband had a similar result PLUS he physically experienced his rheumatoid arthritis symptoms disappear, and his constant congestion diminish significantly.

It's hard to argue with first hand, objective positive results, even if a website does claim nutrition facts. I went to the website, I didn’t watch Dr Greger’s video, but I did read his notes. I didn’t read anything of specific about what his counter argument is, maybe I was in the wrong place or you have to watch the video and I'm not in a position to watch his video right now.
-Theresa
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Re: Dr. Steven Gundry with diet recommendations for ApoE4

Postby NewRon » Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:43 pm

My best ever HDL's were from eating a kilo or two of mussels every week. It increased from 1.35 (52) to 1.67 (65). LDL didn't budge from 3.5 (135).

Back down at 1.35 now. Time to start back on mussels, I think!
Apo E4/E4, Male, Age 54


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