Full Keto diet or not?

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bikerman
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Full Keto diet or not?

Postby bikerman » Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:58 pm

I notice that on Stavia's primer, the ketogenic diet is not mentioned. However, it is a part of the Bredesen Protocol, as Dr. Bredesen recommends testing with a ketone meter and having level between 1.5 and 3.0. I am 57, 4/4 but asymptomatic. I have a pretty strict diet (no simple carbs, no sugar, low carb, high in healthy fats, lots of veggies). My reading on ketone meter has generally been in the 0.50 range. However, my BMI is 21 and I don't want to lose weight - and struggle to not lose weight when on the full keto diet. If not practicing the strict keto regime, is it still a good idea to have the 16 hour fast?

How many of you 4/4 people out there practice the full keto regime, versus a modified version? If asymptomatic, is the keto diet really necessary? Are there any known risks of the keto diet, such as gut health or missing out on certain types of nutrients? Are there any drawbacks to not including whole grains in our diets?

I am looking forward to your feedback!

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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby Plumster » Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:31 pm

I am 3/4, but in addition to my genes warning against high fat and then my hyperabsorption of plant "cholesterol," I am not doing the keto-diet. I am whole foods plant based. I've heard skeptics of the keto point out that while there are significant short-term benefits, we don't have enough data to say that these benefits are longterm. This is Dr. Rhonda Patrick's argument, for example. She's 3/4.

See also: https://www.mygenefood.com/can-a-ketoge ... ers-apoe4/
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Julie G
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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby Julie G » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:38 pm

Of course, it's possible to get the benefits of ketosis without lots of added fat. Many of us fast for long periods and exercise every day to reach our BHB goals. I'd frankly be nervous about using nutritional ketosis without the other two strategies. :shock: People often mistakenly think "keto" always means nutritional ketosis.

It's important to understand that Dr. Bredesen recommends this approach to restore the metabolic inflexibility that often occurs with insulin resistance. At this stage, the brain experiences a type of double jeopardy where It can't effectively use glucose as fuel, nor can it easily transition to ketosis where we burn our own stored body fat. The brain is literally starving, unable to utilize the cerebral glucose that is present. Once insulin resistance is healed and metabolic flexibility is restored (or if it's never been lost) a long daily fast, exercise, avoidance of sugar and refined carbs may be enough. YMMV.

That said, E4 carriers exhibit this brain fuel shortfall as early as our 20s so we need to be fastidious about avoiding insulin resistance and eating cleanly as early as possible.

bikerman
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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby bikerman » Tue Feb 05, 2019 2:50 pm

OK, since posting I read up on ketogenesis in the wiki here: https://www.apoe4.info/wiki/Ketosis_and_Ketogenic_Diet. So my question is: Without cognitive issues (and 4/4), should I go on a full keto diet as a pre-emptive measure, or alternatively just practice good healthy lifestyle habits of LCHF (Low Carb High Fat) clean diet, daily exercise, and daily fast. In other words, are there clear benefits of going into ketosis and having my liver create ketones for fuel?

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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby Robhypno » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:18 pm

I've gone full keto and feel amazing, physically and mentally. Mentally has been a revolution and energy of an 18 year old - I'm in my fifties.

Full bloods so far have been very good after almost 6 months.

I was worried about the high fats, still am but how I feel counters that. I have lost virtually 2 stone (26 pounds) weight that is ALL body fat. I've had to get rid of so many clothes that size wise hadn't changed all my adult life.

Full keto was the only way I could achieve and maintain ketosis. I think everyone may be different. I will review everything again very soon as it will be 6 months, bloods etc. If things become less favourable then I'll naturally adjust.

How I feel now with keto though is incredible. I should point out it took about 6 weeks to get full keto adapted but then I felt the dramatic changes

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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby Plumster » Tue Feb 05, 2019 3:36 pm

Once insulin resistance is healed and metabolic flexibility is restored (or if it's never been lost) a long daily fast, exercise, avoidance of sugar and refined carbs may be enough.


That sounds great to me!!
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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby mike » Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:44 pm

bikerman wrote:OK, since posting I read up on ketogenesis in the wiki here: https://www.apoe4.info/wiki/Ketosis_and_Ketogenic_Diet. So my question is: Without cognitive issues (and 4/4), should I go on a full keto diet as a pre-emptive measure, or alternatively just practice good healthy lifestyle habits of LCHF (Low Carb High Fat) clean diet, daily exercise, and daily fast. In other words, are there clear benefits of going into ketosis and having my liver create ketones for fuel?

bikerman, your ketones are fine based on your testing - anything above .5 is considered to be in ketosis. Some would argue that .3 is okay. This should give you sufficient brain energy, I would think. Not to say deeper ketosis is not a good thing. And diets can be across the board. I myself am a 20 year diabetic, was 270 lbs and lost 65 lbs on a mostly animal based high protein, very low carb, moderate fat diet, along with a few extended water fasts.

Here is an article that should make all ApoE4s want to do a Keto diet...

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... in_Barrier

Prolonged exposure of BBB endothelial cells to KBs induce expression of monocarboxylate transporters and enhances brain uptake rate of KBs. In addition, cell migration and expression of gap junction proteins are upregulated by KBs. Altogether, these reports suggest that the beneficial effects of the ketogenic diet may depend on increased brain uptake of KBs to match metabolic demand and repair of a disrupted blood-brain barrier (BBB). As the effects of KBs on the BBB and its transport mechanisms across the BBB are better understood, it will be possible to develop alternative strategies to optimize its therapeutic benefits for brain disorders where the BBB is compromised.
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TheresaB
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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby TheresaB » Wed Feb 06, 2019 12:29 pm

bikerman wrote:If asymptomatic, is the keto diet really necessary? Are there any known risks of the keto diet, such as gut health or missing out on certain types of nutrients? Are there any drawbacks to not including whole grains in our diets?


In 2017, I attended Low Carb USA in San Diego and one of the presentations was provided by Dr Georgia Ede entitled, "Preventing Alzheimer's is Easier than you think. How Sugar affects the brain" Unfortunately it is not available on the web without paying for it, but in the presentation she posited a sort of dietary spectrum depending how healthy a person is with regard to insulin resistance, it made a lot of sense to me. As one progresses down this ladder, she proposed that the diet get stricter. Do recognize that a person is asymptomatic through most of these steps. She also said that by the time symptoms start to become noticeable, our precious hippocampus in the brain (responsible for memory) has atrophied 10%. The progression of Alzheimer's takes decades.

Healthy – Clean, Whole, Real Foods Diet
|
Mildly Insulin Resistant – Low Carb, High (good) Fat diet
|
Moderately Insulin Resistant – Low Carb, High (good) Fat diet, a little stricter
|
Mild Cognitive Impairment – Ketogenic diet
|
Alzheimer’s Disease – Strict Ketogenic diet

Unfortunately, with today’s modern diet, a great number of folks have insulin resistance (IR) and don’t know it, their blood sugar tests normal (which just means the IR hasn’t progressed to Type 2 diabetes). Regrettably if a person’s blood sugar is normal, the doctor stops there. If the blood sugar reading is abnormal, the doctor will often do an oral glucose tolerance test, but that’s an incomplete diagnostic tool since it does not include an insulin assay. In other words we could be identifying and preventing insulin resistance, thus reducing MANY chronic diseases not just Alzheimer's, but our doctors don't understand insulin resistance and don't test for it early enough. But I digress…

Risks of keto diet? In my opinion, it depends on how you do it. Some folks who follow a keto diet consume too much animal protein and don’t include vegetables. Quality of food is important, so much food is grain fed, not organic, genetically modified, hormone laden, filled with preservatives or refined vegetable oils. Yes, a keto diet can be unhealthy.

But ketones are known to burn cleaner and more efficiently and reduce inflammation all those are good things for an ApoEε4 in addition to providing a source of fuel for the brain in addition to glucose.

Are there any drawbacks to not including whole grains in our diets?
There are mixed studies about whole grain, good for you and bad for you. All I know is Dr Bredesen recommends eliminating high gluten foods and in addition to eliminating grain foods, whole grains are particularly insidious, they contain Wheat Germ Agglutinin. In the book, The Plant Paradox by Dr Steven Gundry, he discusses Wheat Germ Agglutinin (WGA). It is a very tiny protein that can penetrate even the tight junctures of a healthy, non-leaky gut. It then binds to the insulin receptors of our muscles and brains blocking them. Our brain needs these insulin receptors to utilize glucose, the brain cannot run on ketones alone.
-Theresa
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Plumster
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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby Plumster » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:29 pm

whole grains are particularly insidious,


And then there's the other view--for good measure and for a good measure of confusion!

Whole grains like brown rice, teff, quinoa, buckwheat (a seed rather than a grain), oats, etc are good for us:

Published:January 10, 2019, in The Lancet:
striking dose-response evidence indicates that the relationships to several non-communicable diseases could be causal. Implementation of recommendations to increase dietary fibre intake and to replace refined grains with whole grains is expected to benefit human health.


"Carbohydrate quality and human health: a series of systematic reviews and meta-analyses"
Andrew Reynolds, PhD, Prof Jim Mann, DM, Prof John Cummings, MD, Nicola Winter, MDiet, Evelyn Mete, MDiet, Lisa Te Morenga, PhD

Article about the findings: https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases ... 011019.php
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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby efcole » Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:14 pm

TheresaB wrote:In 2017, I attended Low Carb USA in San Diego and one of the presentations was provided by Dr Georgia Ede entitled, "Preventing Alzheimer's is Easier than you think. How Sugar affects the brain" Unfortunately it is not available on the web without paying for it, but in the presentation she posited a sort of dietary spectrum depending how healthy a person is with regard to insulin resistance, it made a lot of sense to me. As one progresses down this ladder, she proposed that the diet get stricter. Do recognize that a person is asymptomatic through most of these steps. She also said that by the time symptoms start to become noticeable, our precious hippocampus in the brain (responsible for memory) has atrophied 10%. The progression of Alzheimer's takes decades.

Healthy – Clean, Whole, Real Foods Diet
|
Mildly Insulin Resistant – Low Carb, High (good) Fat diet
|
Moderately Insulin Resistant – Low Carb, High (good) Fat diet, a little stricter
|
Mild Cognitive Impairment – Ketogenic diet
|
Alzheimer’s Disease – Strict Ketogenic diet



Theresa,

Thank you for providing the title of the presentation from Dr. Ede. Through a Google search of the title, I found an article (same title) she wrote in Psychology Today and includes reference to the presentation. The article is accessible through the link below. As you suggested, it is very informative. Also, in the article is a link to the presentation and a link to an audio recording of the presentation. Thanks again for writing about this, Theresa!

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -you-think


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