Full Keto diet or not?

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bladedmind
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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby bladedmind » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:34 pm

This very question has been on my mind since starting to read this blog. I’m 69 years old, APOE 4/4, with long-lived relatives, generally in good health, 24 BMI, T2D controlled 20 years, a1c consistently 5.7.

I’m always amazed when I read reports here and elsewhere from people thriving on ketogenic diets. To make two long stories short….I tried keto for six months in 2002 - I could not think, could not lift weights, could not run or bicycle, had exploded cholesterol, and was constantly miserable. I read up on ketogenic diet at the forum wiki (which is superb! thanks to all), including the link to induction flu. I had that the whole time. Riding my bike home 5 miles from work was always exhausting, and one day the exhaustion, misery, and massive, universe-hating panic was too much and I ended the diet.

I tried again in 2013 for three months. Cleaner diet. Felt bad but wanted to tough it out. I was traveling for fun with son and his beau. They went into the grocery store and I stayed in the car in the parking lot. I decided I wanted to get something in the store. We came back out and I had left the car door wide open, the keys in the ignition, and all our stuff unsecured. That is completely unlike me. I stopped keto then and there, and felt good and smart again. I can’t accept that something that makes me feel so bad and destroys my cognition could be good for me and for my cognition. Next, I erred in diet by eating too much protein, some fat, some carbs.

A year later I discovered the Perfect Health Diet and have been 70-90% compliant since, more compliant since I learned I am APOE 4/4. Lowish carbs (non-white-potato tubers and almost no grain), moderate protein (frequent SMASH fish), lots of EVOO, avocado, non-sugary vegetables. Two years ago started consciously to intermittent fast. Always a minimum of 12 hours, often 14, with no discomfort. I tried a 36-hour fast (with electrolytes) at Christmas. It was easy to will the fast, but I felt physically bad. I read what Theresa wrote about the Ede presentation - maybe I’m OK - moderate insulin resistance and lowish carb?

Reading Jaminet’s blog a few years ago, it seemed to me that some people explode with joy and energy from the ketogenic diet and others, like me, feel like they are dying 24/7. Are there others on this board who respond badly to attempts at ketogenesis? Why are some people that way? I have good discipline and have contemplated trying the keto diet again, but even if I do follow the latest advice, it seems to me that the odds of reaching keto-adaptation are quite low. I foresee months of misery with no rewards at the end. However, I want to remain mentally intact for as long as possible.

I think I can extend the intermittent fast. MCTs are advised against, except as a bridge to full keto. How about extending in the morning with a little C8 and exogenous ketones (cal-mag-pot-sod)? I tried that once last week and felt pretty good till noon. I suppose I can try full fast for some number of days once a month but my 36-hour experiment suggests I’d be nonfunctional for the duration. I’m aware of the fasting-mimicking diet - rather than do that, I think I would prefer to just fast rather than obsessing about the next tiny snack.

Thanks for any advice.

frankiesfriend
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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby frankiesfriend » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:44 am

You may be interested in a discussion with Nir Barzilai, who carried out a small study of centenarians with a succinct gene pool, in which he noted healthy aging despite life style and APOE status. You may have won the genetic jackpot if your parents are both long-lived and aging with relatively good health.

https://peterattiamd.com/nirbarzilai/

Torimintz
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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby Torimintz » Thu Feb 07, 2019 6:04 am

I struggle with keto and feeling on top of my game. The brain fog keto flu passed early on, but still I feel not totally 100% on keto and can only seem to go a maximum of 19 hours fasting before I feel crazy. I typically eat doing a 16 : 8 plan, and keto, and I eat plenty of calories (nuts, olive oil, fish) so I am happy that I am not gaining weight... but I can't seem to get to that point that serious keto people brag about.

Robhypno
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Re: RE: Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby Robhypno » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:28 am

Torimintz wrote:I struggle with keto and feeling on top of my game. The brain fog keto flu passed early on, but still I feel not totally 100% on keto and can only seem to go a maximum of 19 hours fasting before I feel crazy. I typically eat doing a 16 : 8 plan, and keto, and I eat plenty of calories (nuts, olive oil, fish) so I am happy that I am not gaining weight... but I can't seem to get to that point that serious keto people brag about.
Hi Torimintz

It took me about 6 weeks to get adapted. My mistakes at the beginning were

Not eating enough fat

Not having enough salt and minerals

Eating too many nuts

Food portions - not large enough

I experienced all what you spoke of. Once I increased my fat in take, everything changed.

Hope that helps

Rob

Torimintz
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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby Torimintz » Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:05 am

Why is eating too many nuts contributing to this?
Thanks

Robhypno
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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby Robhypno » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:00 am

I found when I moderated in take of nuts along with the other areas I mentioned, I noticed the keto experience I had read about, happened

mike
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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby mike » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:53 am

Nuts have carbs. I have to stay VERY low carbs. Most don't. Just depends on where you are with insulin resistance.
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NancyM
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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby NancyM » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:22 am

bladedmind wrote:A year later I discovered the Perfect Health Diet and have been 70-90% compliant since, more compliant since I learned I am APOE 4/4. Lowish carbs (non-white-potato tubers and almost no grain), moderate protein (frequent SMASH fish), lots of EVOO, avocado, non-sugary vegetables. Two years ago started consciously to intermittent fast. Always a minimum of 12 hours, often 14, with no discomfort. I tried a 36-hour fast (with electrolytes) at Christmas. It was easy to will the fast, but I felt physically bad. I read what Theresa wrote about the Ede presentation - maybe I’m OK - moderate insulin resistance and lowish carb?


Bladedmind, this diet seems to follow what a lot of us are doing. Do you test for ketones? I tend to stay in mild ketosis when eating this way, and I'm wondering if you may be experiencing the same thing?

bladedmind
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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby bladedmind » Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:36 am

NancyM, thanks, haven't tested with a meter (high cost) but with with inferior strips. Some mornings the strip shows trace ketones.

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Re: Full Keto diet or not?

Postby Tincup » Thu Feb 07, 2019 7:56 pm

I've been keto or fat adapted for 9.5 years. This doesn't mean I only eat 20 grams of carbs/day. I did that initially to adapt, though TheresaB, my wife never did that and adapted gradually, as did Stavia when she adapted (though she doesn't maintain that adaptation continually). As others have mentioned, time restricted eating (I normally eat in a two hour window) & exercise (I do all sorts of exercise fasted at least 14 or more hours can allow one to maintain keto adaptation on significantly higher carb diets. Two years ago, did a two week http://www.Cronometer.com study with a gram scale of everything eaten. Carbs ranged from 88 to 180 with a mean of 123g/day. Of that 50-60g were fiber (all numbers from memory - I didn't recheck the records, but are in the ballpark). I don't test frequently, but am almost always above 0.5 mmol/L on a morning test. When I do a 5 or 7 day fast, glucose is normally sub 60 mg/dL and ketones north of 4.0 mmol/L on the morning of the 3rd day (about 60 hours into a fast), hence am well keto adapted.

Theresa and I do not notice a change in mental function between 0.0, 0.5 or 8.0 mmol/L serum BHB. Since insulin production will inhibit ketone production, I look at ketones as an inverse measure of insulin (i.e. higher ketones means low insulin). I don't chase ketone levels, even 0.5 mmol/L means a relatively low insulin level. This is what I'm after. As an aside, we eat per our doc, Steve Gundry's instruction and have posted 7 sets of labs as well as consult transcripts linked here.
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