Importance of sleep interview by Rhonda Patrick

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circular
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Re: Importance of sleep interview by Rhonda Patrick

Post by circular »

NewRon wrote:
TheresaB wrote: Personal opinion, this should be a must listen for everyone, even those who think they get enough sleep, but are they getting the right quality?
I agree
I was thinking the same thing when it came out and I listened in the car. I wasn’t in a position to post but thought, ‘It’s okay, Theresa or Tincup will.’ :D
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.
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Re: Importance of sleep interview by Rhonda Patrick

Post by Jafa »

Thankyou for your kind thoughts and suggestions Circular. I am pleased to hear of your sleep success ... 8 hours, wow, many years since I have slept that long .. about 6 1/2hrs was my norm before I developed disrupted sleep. I usually go to bed at 10 which coincides with when I become sleepy. My sleep therapist has suggested just 3 things for me. Go to bed at the same time at night and get up early (6am) to increase the sleep drive. Get outside for an hour in the late afternoon because I awaken early, and get out of bed if I wake and am unable to go back to sleep within 30mins. I’m struggling with that one a bit. My preference is to stay in bed and try to sleep, happens occasionally, but I have to learn to associate bed with sleeping. If it is not successful I shall certainly try your method.
P. S. I am getting an Oura ring in a couple of months, for my birthday! Hopefully it will provide some insight.
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Re: Importance of sleep interview by Rhonda Patrick

Post by babl »

Improving my sleep has been a longtime ongoing project, especially seeing my mom's lifelong struggle with sleep apnea, and now Alzheimer's. I'm always looking for more ways to improve my sleep, but a few things I've found to be very helpful are some of the usual (keeping the room absolutely dark at night including black-out shades, turning down the heat at night so that my bedroom gets very cool, using white noise), but also a few surprising "unusual" things, such as using a ChiliPad to keep my body temperature regulated at night (thanks to Peter Attia for recommending this one - I love it!), and using a small room-sized humidifier. Not sure what the reason is behind the success with the humidifier, but I definitely sleep better when I use it. I've also switched out our family room lights to some LED lights that change to an amber light after the sun sets, and have both my computer and phone set up with f.lux.

Right now I'm trying to address my body's circadian rhythm, getting up just before sunrise and trying to get outside and face the sun as it rises, for as much of that early morning sun-in-the-face as possible. Then also getting to bed early. I'd like to get to bed by 9 (or even 8 as someone suggested above) but I'm still struggling to change old habits of staying up later. I'm hoping this early-sun, early-to-bed routine will also address some high cortisol issues I'm trying to fix.
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Re: Importance of sleep interview by Rhonda Patrick

Post by anne from california »

I guess I should listen to the interview, but I, too, find this subject horribly depressing. I am lucky to get three hours of solid sleep a night. After that, I wake up every time I roll over, I think. Sometimes I get up and read, because it feels stupid to just lie there. Some nights are worse than others, and I'm actually afraid of getting any sort of a sleep-reader like an Oura ring or a Fitbit, because of what it's likely to reveal. In terms of depth of sleep, if you imagine 12 inches deep, 12 being the deepest, I think I'm at about a 3 for the three solid hours, and between a zero and a 1 for the rest of the night. It's the harpies (to-do list, wish-I'd-done list, things-to-worry-about list), the hot flashes (intolerant to HT), genetic predisposition to insomnia (Dad takes Ativan to sleep), intolerance to any form of oral sleep aid (herbs, melatonin, cold medication) . . . I've sort of given up. I do have the room as dark as possible and use a blue blocker on screens and try and get plenty of natural sunlight during the day and eat some carbs for dinner.
60 years old, ApoE 3/3, mother and grandmother have/had late-onset dementia, eager to save brain and optimize health.
Thank you all for sharing your knowledge!
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Re: Importance of sleep interview by Rhonda Patrick

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anne from california wrote:It's the harpies (to-do list, wish-I'd-done list, things-to-worry-about list), the hot flashes (intolerant to HT), genetic predisposition to insomnia (Dad takes Ativan to sleep), intolerance to any form of oral sleep aid (herbs, melatonin, cold medication) . . . I've sort of given up. I do have the room as dark as possible and use a blue blocker on screens and try and get plenty of natural sunlight during the day and eat some carbs for dinner.
Have you ever tried CBD oil? If you can find something about 20:1 CBD to THC, that is helpful to many folks have problems sleeping because of anxiety... If you want something with more concentrated CBD, you might try Aunt Zelda.
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Re: Importance of sleep interview by Rhonda Patrick

Post by Jafa »

Hi anne from california. Don’t give up hope, I was in your space, waking up many times at night and being unable to get back to sleep. I have a long standing anxiety problem and this was fuelling, and being fuelled by the insomnia- when you don’t sleep and know how important sleep is you can get into a bit of a panic.

The supplements which I think help me are the gaba precursors (l-theanine and taurine), melatonin and magnesium threonate. Compared with the last few months though my sleep is now 60-70% better according to my partner Dr Jafa. The two major interventions have been to heed the advice of my sleep consultant and get outside in the sunlight later in the day (without my light-reactive transitions spectacles which I have worn every day for years to save myself from eye disease such as cataract lol) and I completed a very good mindfulness group course after which I found meditation more enjoyable and effective, and my mindset was changed to modify self talk, be kinder to myself and more easily live in the now.

I also got my Oura ring about 4 weeks ago. Like you I doubted I was getting any deep sleep and was pleasantly surprised and reassured to find that this impression was erroneous. My experience is that the Oura ring, like every other wearable sleep tracker, is not 100% accurate, and in particular the Oura will misinterpret being awake and lying still as being in light sleep. However Oura does appear to give a reasonable estimation of the deep and REM phases of sleep. Baby boomers of which I’m one are apparently averaging 6.5hrs/night of which REM makes up 21% and deep sleep 13%. Over the last month I have been averaging 12.5% deep sleep, albeit that this can range from as low as 2% to as high as 26% per night, and the Oura ring has proven helpful to sort out the impact of various interventions or indiscretions on my sleep architecture.

I am much more careful to prioritise the chance to get 8hrs sleep, try to be in bed by 10.15pm and up at 6.30am. I am not waking up as often as I was and generally find it easier to get back to sleep, although this is less likely to occur if I wake after 5am. All in all I feel a lot better, and for so long was despairing that this would never again be the case. It’s an ongoing battle for me, and my heart goes out to you Anne. Hang in there.
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Re: Importance of sleep interview by Rhonda Patrick

Post by Jafa »

Oops, quick fact check. While my figures are correct, sadly, for total hours slept by members of the Baby Boomer generation, the percentage in deep sleep is for my age cohort (I’m 68) not for the entire generation. Those younger members will spend more time in deep sleep, bless! Or is that bliss!
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Re: Importance of sleep interview by Rhonda Patrick

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So I though I was doing fairly well with sleep. Used to use a CPAP for sleep apnea, but stopped using after the fires here. I've lost a good amount of weight, and thought that I was sleeping better, so didn't need any longer. Just to be sure, I decided to get an Oura ring. On the first 3 nights, it said I was waking up a lot, but I was getting a decent amount of actual sleep. And REM sleep. But no Deep sleep at all...big no-no for ApoE4, since that is when stuff like AB and other garbage mostly get cleared. Wife tried ring and had deep sleep.
Since Deep Sleep happens mostly at the beginning of sleep, I decided to try the CPAP again for at least the first few hours. It worked - I kept it on for 3 hours and got almost an hour of deep sleep! Next evening I drank wine before bed. Wore the CPAP again for a couple of hours, but this time no deep sleep... Will try again tonight without the wine. :(
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Re: Importance of sleep interview by Rhonda Patrick

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As an update, I've only had any real deep sleep twice since I last posted, and both times I had wine and did not use my CPAP... Best correlation to deep sleep so far actually seems to be exercise in the late afternoon / early evening... Physical therapy doing resistance and weights at 4:30, volleyball at 6:30, going to Costco to get supplies for a large party with heavy cases to move at 5. Early morning walking the dogs in the hills doesn't seem to do it.
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Re: Importance of sleep interview by Rhonda Patrick

Post by NF52 »

mike wrote:Since Deep Sleep happens mostly at the beginning of sleep, I decided to try the CPAP again for at least the first few hours. It worked - I kept it on for 3 hours and got almost an hour of deep sleep! Next evening I drank wine before bed. Wore the CPAP again for a couple of hours, but this time no deep sleep... As an update, I've only had any real deep sleep twice since I last posted, and both times I had wine and did not use my CPAP... Best correlation to deep sleep so far actually seems to be exercise in the late afternoon / early evening... Physical therapy doing resistance and weights at 4:30, volleyball at 6:30, going to Costco to get supplies for a large party with heavy cases to move at 5. Early morning walking the dogs in the hills doesn't seem to do it.
Hi mike,

Sorry to hear that deep sleep is still elusive. But you may have discovered something recommended by the Sleep Foundation:
Strength training at any time of day may improve sleep
Lifting weights at different times of day doesn't seem to affect nighttime blood pressure or the amount of time spent in different sleep stages. But there are a couple of key differences. Those who pump iron in the a.m. tend to fall asleep faster than those who work out later in the day. And those who prefer to do their bench presses or bicep curls at night wake up less frequently during the night and sleep better overall, compared with people who work out earlier in the day. The bottom line: Grab those weights whenever it works best for your day, and you'll snooze better for it.
The Best Time of Day to Exercise for Quality Zzz's

I noticed that your earlier post said that deep sleep happens mostly at the beginning of sleep. While it may happen more total minutes earlier in the night, I wonder if you're not giving the second half of the night the chance to enjoy the CPAP benefit for deep sleep. See this, from the NIH's National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke:
You cycle through all stages of non-REM and REM sleep several times during a typical night, with increasingly longer, deeper REM periods occurring toward morning.

Stage 1 non-REM sleep is the changeover from wakefulness to sleep. During this short period (lasting several minutes) of relatively light sleep, your heartbeat, breathing, and eye movements slow, and your muscles relax with occasional twitches...

Stage 2 non-REM sleep is a period of light sleep before you enter deeper sleep...You spend more of your repeated sleep cycles in stage 2 sleep than in other sleep stages.

Stage 3 non-REM sleep is the period of deep sleep that you need to feel refreshed in the morning. It occurs in longer periods during the first half of the night. Your heartbeat and breathing slow to their lowest levels during sleep. Your muscles are relaxed and it may be difficult to awaken you. Brain waves become even slower.
Brain Basics: Understanding Sleep

So maybe try adjusting the variable a bit? Some nights with no wine, but moderate strength training exercise and CPAP all night long; some nights with CPAP all night and no strength training or wine? FWIW, I used to work with a guy who never had a weight problem but discovered he had severe sleep apnea in his mid-50's. Said he never slept better than with the CPAP machine. My mother was much older when diagnosed with sleep apnea, but also had never been overweight.

Keep us posted!
4/4 and still an optimist!
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