It's hard to reconcile Walker's position with the inverse relationship between coffee drinking and all-cause mortality and other health benefits. I suspect that there's a "sweet spot" for those who can tolerate it.I actually think what he's gently saying, is that the science tells us that NOBODY can tolerate caffeine, irrespective of their genetic predisposition (and some metabolize less than others) and that it has an effect on everybody's sleep, whether we realize it or not.
Updates to Dr Bredesen's Protocol
Re: Updates to Dr Bredesen's Protocol
Re: Updates to Dr Bredesen's Protocol
I was thinking that same thing, just about all foods have a j shaped curve as far as reaction. You need that "goldilocks" spot.Julie G wrote:I suspect that there's a "sweet spot" for those who can tolerate it.
-Theresa
ApoE 4/4
ApoE 4/4
- floramaria
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Re: Updates to Dr Bredesen's Protocol
In my continuous pursuit of improving the quantity and quality of the magic balm of sleep, I have recently read Walker’s book, and also listened to a few webinars.Julie G wrote:I suspect that there's a "sweet spot" for those who can tolerate it.
In his book, he says “Based in a large part on genetics, some people have a more efficient version of the enzyme that degrades caffeine, allowing the liver to rapidly clear it from the bloodstream .”
My Promethease report tells me that I am a fast metabolizer of caffeine. I still only drink coffee before before noon; caffeine does not seem to have much impact on my ability to fall and stay asleep as long as intake is early.
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IFM/ Bredesen Training in Reversing Cognitive Decline (March 2017)
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Re: RE: Re: Updates to Dr Bredesen's Protocol
Ditto for me, I drink coffee well past noon and sleep like a rock. I also have the fast metabolism varient.floramaria wrote:In my continuous pursuit of improving the quantity and quality of the magic balm of sleep, I have recently read Walker’s book, and also listened to a few webinars.Julie G wrote:I suspect that there's a "sweet spot" for those who can tolerate it.
In his book, he says “Based in a large part on genetics, some people have a more efficient version of the enzyme that degrades caffeine, allowing the liver to rapidly clear it from the bloodstream .”
My Promethease report tells me that I am a fast metabolizer of caffeine. I still only drink coffee before before noon; caffeine does not seem to have much impact on my ability to fall and stay asleep as long as intake is early.
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Male 4/4 56 yrs., "Live, Laugh, Love"
Re: Updates to Dr Bredesen's Protocol
Ok, there’s a couple of things here. In this following sentence, he’s clearly not talking about me;
“And even if you're someone who, you know, can fall asleep fine, stay asleep, you should just know that caffeine can still impact your sleep."
He’s talking about fast metabolisers of caffeine (and normal metabolisers, if they exist). So he’s saying that, despite what you may think, the caffeine can still affect your sleep. I sleep just GREAT after a few glasses of natural wine However, we also know that it’s not sleep, it’s sedation, which is entirely different. I suspect he sees similar sleep problems with caffeine, when he surveys people in his sleep lab. There are also not insignificant amounts of caffeine in teas of the non-herbal varieties (green, black, oolong etc.).
So, I think to answer the original question which was about decaf, I’d say, go ahead and use the decaf. It’s the most prudent choice and IIRC, most of the correlations of coffee and health apply to both decaf and caffeinated coffee.
“And even if you're someone who, you know, can fall asleep fine, stay asleep, you should just know that caffeine can still impact your sleep."
He’s talking about fast metabolisers of caffeine (and normal metabolisers, if they exist). So he’s saying that, despite what you may think, the caffeine can still affect your sleep. I sleep just GREAT after a few glasses of natural wine However, we also know that it’s not sleep, it’s sedation, which is entirely different. I suspect he sees similar sleep problems with caffeine, when he surveys people in his sleep lab. There are also not insignificant amounts of caffeine in teas of the non-herbal varieties (green, black, oolong etc.).
So, I think to answer the original question which was about decaf, I’d say, go ahead and use the decaf. It’s the most prudent choice and IIRC, most of the correlations of coffee and health apply to both decaf and caffeinated coffee.
Apo E4/E4, Male, Age 60
Re: Updates to Dr Bredesen's Protocol
I just listened to that podcast with Matthew Walker a second time the other day too, and this is also how I understood it. I *think* he said that, as with alcohol, people think they’re sleeping fine with the caffeine in their system, but it’s actually affecting the quality of their sleep in some way. Maybe there are exceptions. It would be interesting to hear more details about it from Matthew Walker.NewRon wrote:I actually think what he's gently saying, is that the science tells us that NOBODY can tolerate caffeine, irrespective of their genetic predisposition (and some metabolize less than others) and that it has an effect on everybody's sleep, whether we realize it or not.Of course, you shouldn't drink caffeine if you can't tolerate it and Dr. Bredesen agrees that it should only be drunk before noon. (See above.)
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.
Re: Updates to Dr Bredesen's Protocol
In his book, Why We Sleep, Matthew Walker has a good discussion of caffeine, it's half-life discussing how it can still have effects hours after intake, and caffeine's influence in opposition to adenosine (the sleepiness chemical in the body).circular wrote:It would be interesting to hear more details about it from Matthew Walker.
-Theresa
ApoE 4/4
ApoE 4/4
Re: Updates to Dr Bredesen's Protocol
I think that's what I was trying to say. Divided by a common language, obviouslycircular wrote:I just listened to that podcast with Matthew Walker a second time the other day too, and this is also how I understood it. I *think* he said that, as with alcohol, people think they’re sleeping fine with the caffeine in their system, but it’s actually affecting the quality of their sleep in some way. Maybe there are exceptions. It would be interesting to hear more details about it from Matthew Walker.NewRon wrote:I actually think what he's gently saying, is that the science tells us that NOBODY can tolerate caffeine, irrespective of their genetic predisposition (and some metabolize less than others) and that it has an effect on everybody's sleep, whether we realize it or not.Of course, you shouldn't drink caffeine if you can't tolerate it and Dr. Bredesen agrees that it should only be drunk before noon. (See above.)
Apo E4/E4, Male, Age 60
Re: Updates to Dr Bredesen's Protocol
That was my take too. Reading the book and hearing his podcasts has had a profound impact on how I use caffeine. I used to think nothing of an occasional cup of afternoon coffee as a pick-me-up, but now have decided to completely abstain after my morning fueling of about 1-2 cups, starting at 5AM and finishing around 6:30AM.I just listened to that podcast with Matthew Walker a second time the other day too, and this is also how I understood it. I *think* he said that, as with alcohol, people think they’re sleeping fine with the caffeine in their system, but it’s actually affecting the quality of their sleep in some way.
Re: Updates to Dr Bredesen's Protocol
Mmm, I have 1 strong black coffee every morning around 7am. Two mornings a week I meet friends for coffee and have a milky version, still strong (double shot) I’m going to chart the difference on sleep using Oura ring between the 1 coffee early and the days of the extra later one. Should also at same time note the 2 or 3 evenings when I have a small red wine.