Sleep

Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, and other chronic diseases; biomarkers, lifestyle, supplements, drugs, and health care.
johnseed
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:21 pm

Sleep

Postby johnseed » Wed Jul 03, 2019 6:13 am

My mother died with dementia, I'm 73 years old and have been noticing cognitive decline for about 10 years now. Recently started following Bredesen advice and discovered, among other things, an APOe4 allele. (e4e2).

Quite stunned by the importance of sleep revealed by Dr Matthew Walker in his book "Why We Sleep". Listened to his podcasts with Peter Attia and Rhonda Patrick and now listened to his book on Audible.

I'm now following all the sleep hygene rules - sleep 8 hours whenever I can, same time to bed and to rise, blue light blocking glasses once the lights go on, no screens for an hour before sleep. etc etc Anyhow, I seem to sleep quite well and if I wake in the night get back to sleep again OK

One of the things that Walker points out that its during the deep sleep phase, mostly early in the night, slow delta waves, spindles, that 1. the days memories get transferred from hippocampus to long-term storage around the cortex and 2. the glial cells shrink and cerebrospinal fluid is squirted thru the brain washing out amyloid plaques and other detritus,

I got myself an Oura ring which is, as far as I can tell, the best way to monitor the stages of sleep though the field is very much in its infancy and Oura is only about 60% accurate compared with getting wired up at a sleep clinic.

Anyhow, after a month of nightly monitoring, the oura tells me that I rarely get anywhere near the 2 hours of deep NREM sleep that would be optimal, often getting none at all or just a few minutes.

Unhappily, Dr Walker doesn't have many ideas about hacking the stages of sleep. He does suggest that a hot bath just before bed increases the amount of deep sleep by 10 or 15% but I haven't noticed any impact as yet.

Just listened to an interesting podcast where Rhonda Patrick (herself with one APOe4 allele) is guest of Joe Rogan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9M8X_bs_fzI . Starting about 1'32" into the program she speaks of Dr Bredesen's work (he was a guest on her podcast October last year - excellent program https://www.foundmyfitness.com/episodes/dale-bredesen ) and then a few minutes later she talks about APOe4. She speaks of 2 mechanisms for clearing the Amyloid plaques and Tau tangles. One is DHA from fish (but perhaps not from fish oil for APOe4s) . She says that APOe4s transport this across the blood-brain barrier 20-fold less efficiently than someone who doesn’t have it. And so they rely on sleep. … "and there’s all sorts of studies on APOe4 showing sleep is a major modifiable risk factor for AD. if you have APOe4 but you’re getting good quality sleep you have like the same risk as someone who doesn’t have it."

So .... how much can I rely on my Oura ring telling me my deep sleep is awry ? Dr Walker did say that the part of the brain responsible for deep sleep, located in the medial cortex, is often the first part of the brain that starts to atrophy with increasing age.

Yet 3 times in the last month Oura tells me I had over an hour of deep sleep, and if this is accurate then it clearly shows that I'm capable of so doing.

So is there any way, I wonder, that I can intervene to increase the likelihood of lots of deep sleep?

I'd love to hear from any of you who have thought about sleep in relation to APOe4 and have any thoughts on the matter.

mike
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 585
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:55 pm
Location: CA - Sonoma County

Re: Sleep

Postby mike » Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:31 am

johnseed wrote:My mother died with dementia, I'm 73 years old and have been noticing cognitive decline for about 10 years now. Recently started following Bredesen advice and discovered, among other things, an APOe4 allele. (e4e2).

I've also been tracking my deep sleep with the Oura ring. I've not heard that you need 2 hours of deep sleep - I'm happy the few times I go over 1 hour, and often have none, or just a few minutes. I've done with and w/o a CPAP, I've lowered coffee, but could do more. I find that the times where I'm pushing my muscles anaerobically sometime in the daytime, that is when I get the best deep sleep. It usually happens early in the night. If I'm clogged up, then the CPAP helps. Alcohol doesn't seem to hurt my early sleep and deep sleep, but it often messes up later sleep. I still drink coffee in the afternoon, and suspect if I quit earlier in the day, it would help. If you snore, or the Oura ring shows you are waking early in the evening, then maybe getting checked for sleep apnea might be worth while.
Sonoma Mike
4/4

User avatar
cdamaden
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:46 pm
Location: Alameda, CA, USA

Re: Sleep

Postby cdamaden » Wed Jul 03, 2019 11:59 am

johnseed wrote:So is there any way, I wonder, that I can intervene to increase the likelihood of lots of deep sleep?

I'd love to hear from any of you who have thought about sleep in relation to APOe4 and have any thoughts on the matter.


Hi Johnseed,
I use a fitbit (tracks total sleep, awake time, REM, light sleep, and deep sleep), but have ordered an oura ring for comparison and to get the added Heart Rate Variability features. I consistently get 50 minutes to 1 hour of awake time (~13%). My goal has been one hour of deep sleep. I believe that I am more of a lark than a night owl so have been working hard to get to sleep early to take advantage of Dr Walker's assertion that if you go to bed later than your "natural" time that you miss out on deep sleep, and likewise if you wake earlier than your natural time you miss out on REM sleep. My wife likes to stay up and I have two teenagers who of course don't want to go to bed so I'm not always successful in going to bed early.
I also supplement with magnesium, which I believe helps with my sleep. When I do fasting (i.e. more than 24 hours) my sleep suffers, so I've been doing epsom salt baths that help quite a bit. The other thing that helps me get more quality sleep is to be very physically active; I tend to get more deep sleep on the weekends when I'm working about the house or going to the gym compared to my weekday desk job.
As a 4/4, this is a focus point for me and I look forward to hear what others have done to improve deep sleep.
Chris
Chris
E4/E4
Alameda, CA, USA

johnseed
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 16
Joined: Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:21 pm

Re: Sleep

Postby johnseed » Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:58 pm

Good to meet you Mike and Chris, thanks for your replies.

Maybe you don't need 2 hours of deep sleep. I think I read in Dr. Walker that ideally 25% of sleep time. Clarification would be good if anyone knows more.

I don't have sleep apnea and giving up coffee and alcohol has certainly helped my total sleep.

I'm going to try going to sleep earlier and see if that works, good idea Chris.

xactly
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 96
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:37 am

Re: Sleep

Postby xactly » Wed Jul 03, 2019 4:27 pm

johnseed wrote:Unhappily, Dr Walker doesn't have many ideas about hacking the stages of sleep. He does suggest that a hot bath just before bed increases the amount of deep sleep by 10 or 15% but I haven't noticed any impact as yet.

So is there any way, I wonder, that I can intervene to increase the likelihood of lots of deep sleep?

I just finished reading Matthew Walker's book, after listening to his interviews with Peter Attia, Joe Rogan and Rhonda Patrick. I also bought an Oura ring a couple of months ago, and I'm using it for sleep tracking.

I am a lark, so I've figured out my optimal bedtime is 9 p.m., and I usually get out of bed between 5 and 6 a.m. My average total sleep since I started tracking on May 22 is 8:17.

My deep sleep averages 59 minutes a night over the same time period. Walker says that deep NREM sleep starts to decline in your twenties and thirties, and that you've lost 60 - 70% of it by the end of your forties. By the time you reach 70, you will have lost 80 to 90% of the deep NREM sleep you had in youth. (See page 96 in the book for this discussion.)

My goal is not to reach 2 hours (since I'm 67 years old), but to see just how high I can push up my average. I would also like to keep it as high as possible for as long as possible.

I have a sleep hygiene routine similar to yours, except I don't use blue-blockers. At sundown, I turn off all lights in the house that are not necessary and dim the few that remain. I stop using screens at least one hour before bedtime, and I spend the last hour sitting in a chair reading a traditional book with a book light that is aimed at the page (and not my eyes). When I go to bed, I wear a sleep mask to block out all light and Mack's wax earplugs to dampen sound.

I agree that Matt Walker doesn't provide as much guidance on how to get a good night's sleep as I would like, but here are a couple of tidbits I picked up on the AMA episode he recently did with Peter Attia:
  • He recommends melatonin in two situations: 1) overcoming jet lag; and 2) for older adults, since we produce less melatonin as we age.
  • When he recommends setting the room temperature at 65 degrees F, that's assuming the sleeper is wearing pajamas and using the "usual bed linens" (whatever that means). If you sleep in the buff and use only a top sheet (or nothing at all), you can probably sleep well with a somewhat higher temperature.

I've am doing n=1 experiments to improve my sleep. I don't have problems falling asleep since I changed my nightly routine. One of my goals is to improve continuity; if I do wake in the early morning hours, I use mindfulness to shut off the ruminations (some of my supplements have helped improve continuity). Second goal is to push the deep sleep number as high as I can.

Here's my current bedtime supplement stack: 1 mg tablet of Natrol Time Release Melatonin; 1 capsule of Jarrow GABA Soothe (which contains PharmaGABA, L-Theanine and Ashwagandha); 3 capsules of Life Extension Neuromag (magnesium L-threonate); and 3 g of Now Glycine powder dissolved in water. I'm getting ready to trial 1 g of taurine along with l-tryptophan to see if that improves either deep sleep or sleep continuity.

You also mentioned DHA. Last week, I started following Rhonda Patrick's recommendation on DHA. I am consuming 1 ounce of salmon roe with 1/2 avocado a day because that's the easiest was to get a large dose of DHA in phospholipid form. I was expecting the salmon roe to taste so bad that I was pleasantly surprised when I tried it.

sealypealy
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 7:27 am

Re: Sleep

Postby sealypealy » Fri Jul 05, 2019 3:05 pm

Magnesium L-Threonate knocks me out. It’s a variant of magnesium that crosses the blood-brain barrier. Within 20 minutes of taking it I start yawning. Sometimes I wake up and it’s morning. My dreams are vivid. I’ve had trouble sleeping for years, I had obstructive sleep apnea and didn’t know. Now with a CPAP and this magnesium I sleep soundly. Wake up refreshed. I’m 57 and APOE 4/4. Frightened but taking steps according to Bredesen Protocol. Sleep is vital.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

User avatar
KatieS
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 1217
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:45 pm

Re: Sleep

Postby KatieS » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:08 pm

sealypealy wrote:Magnesium L-Threonate knocks me out. It’s a variant of magnesium that crosses the blood-brain barrier. Within 20 minutes of taking it I start yawning. Sometimes I wake up and it’s morning. My dreams are vivid. I’ve had trouble sleeping for years, I had obstructive sleep apnea and didn’t know. Now with a CPAP and this magnesium I sleep soundly. Wake up refreshed. I’m 57 and APOE 4/4. Frightened but taking steps according to Bredesen Protocol. Sleep is vital.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Your post echoes my experience with sleep apnea treatment. Recently I read that almost 80% of older adults with sleeping problems have sleep apnea. Finally, the diagnostic testing is at home, the clock radio sized quiet machines are self-titrating, displaying your data nightly and you can have a strap-less (no-mask) option.

Plumster
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 346
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:19 pm

Re: Sleep

Postby Plumster » Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:37 am

KatieS wrote:
sealypealy wrote:Magnesium L-Threonate knocks me out. It’s a variant of magnesium that crosses the blood-brain barrier. Within 20 minutes of taking it I start yawning. Sometimes I wake up and it’s morning. My dreams are vivid. I’ve had trouble sleeping for years, I had obstructive sleep apnea and didn’t know. Now with a CPAP and this magnesium I sleep soundly. Wake up refreshed. I’m 57 and APOE 4/4. Frightened but taking steps according to Bredesen Protocol. Sleep is vital.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Your post echoes my experience with sleep apnea treatment. Recently I read that almost 80% of older adults with sleeping problems have sleep apnea. Finally, the diagnostic testing is at home, the clock radio sized quiet machines are self-titrating, displaying your data nightly and you can have a strap-less (no-mask) option.


Katie,
Would you post a link to an example of the machines you describe here?
e3/4 MTHFR C677T/A1298C COMT V158M++ COMT H62H++ MTRR A66G ++ HLA DR

sealypealy
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 7:27 am

Sleep

Postby sealypealy » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:03 pm

CPAP Machines in my experience
I use a ResMed bedside machine that provides humidified air using nasal pillows. It is totally silent. Yes it took me a month to get used to it and fight with it, but now after a year I won’t even take a nap without it and I no longer feel it at all. It also travels with me.
I had a heart attack in my sleep because my oxygen saturations dropped so low. Sleep apnea is a critical issue. Great sleep is vitally important to heart and brain health.
Last edited by sealypealy on Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sealypealy
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 14
Joined: Sun May 15, 2016 7:27 am

Re: Sleep

Postby sealypealy » Sat Jul 06, 2019 12:04 pm

https://www.resmed.com/us/en/consumer/products.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Return to “Prevention and Treatment”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests