animal protein

Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, and other chronic diseases; biomarkers, lifestyle, supplements, drugs, and health care.
User avatar
TheresaB
Mod
Mod
Posts: 1044
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:46 am
Location: Front Range, CO

Re: animal protein

Postby TheresaB » Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:26 pm

johnseed wrote:I know that there is no consensus on this question. I guess I was wondering what Dale Bredesen's flexitarian diet recommends? Is 3oz of animal protein the same as 3 oz of animal flesh? ie does 3 oz of flesh contain 3 oz of protein? Is all animal flesh, red meat, white meat, fish, shellfish etc the same from this perspective?


In addressing the ketoflex diet in his book, Dr Bredesen wrote:
2. The flex in Ketoflex 12/3 refers to a flexitarian diet. This is a largely plant-based diet with an emphasis on vegetables, especially nonstarchy ones…Some fish, poultry, and meat are fine but remember that meat is a condiments, not a main course. Ideally, you would limit your consumption of meat to just a few ounces a day. One rule of thumb is to consume one gram of protein for each kilogram of your weight….Furthermore, quantity is not the only important guideline, quality is also a consideration: the type of fish or meat is important, as I’ll detail below.


Then later, what I think he's referring to about quality of meat:

9. Meat is a condiment, not the main course Men need about 50 to 70 grams of protein each day and women about 40 to 50...Much beyond that may contribute to our carbohydrate burden by a process called transamination...If you eat meat, try to get pastured chicken or grass-fed beef, because these preserve a good omega-3 (anti-inflammatory) to omega-6 (pro-inflammatory) ratio, thus reducing their inflammatory character. ...Similarly, eggs should be from chickens that are pastured, not factory raised, because such eggs also preserve a healthy omega-3 to omega-t ratio.


Dr Bredesen also talks about larger fish living longer and tending to have more mercury, he talks about "SMASH" fish, preferably wild-caught SMASH fish. SMASH being an acronym for Salmon, Mackerel, Anchovies, Sardines and Herring being safer. He also talks about arsenic being present in chicken.

In appendix A under the column of "Eat Frequently" Dr Bredesen lists wild-caught fish, especially SMASH fish and pastured eggs. Pastured chicken and grass fed beef fall under the "eat less frequently" column. In the "avoid if possible" column, he includes dairy and high-mercury fish such as tuna, shark, and swordfish.
-Theresa
ApoE 4/4

Plumster
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 460
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:19 pm

Re: animal protein

Postby Plumster » Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:55 pm

Hi JgilberAZ,

Meat does not cause Hyperinsulinemia.

What does?

Diets high in grains, fruits ...


There are many causes underlying AD, a big one is insulin resistance, which is caused by excess fat in the diet.

Dr. Garth Davis:
Carb fear is amazing to me. Every cell in our body is made to process carbohydrates. Our saliva has enzymes to break down carbs, and we create insulin for a purpose: getting fuel into our cells. Diabetes is a failure of the system to get sugar into the cells. It is not caused by carbs. In fact, the highest carbs eaters have the lowest diabetes rates. Diabetes is caused by fat getting into muscle cells and damaging the cells ability to make insulin receptors. Without insulin receptors the cell can’t bring sugar in, and sugar builds up in the blood. Yes, you can go on a low carb diet and your sugar level will drop. That does NOT mean your diabetes has gone away. The system is still not working and if you give someone on a low carb diet some fruit their sugars are bound to jump.


Here's a good online source: https://www.masteringdiabetes.org/
e3/4 MTHFR C677T/A1298C COMT V158M++ COMT H62H++ MTRR A66G ++ HLA DR

User avatar
jgilberAZ
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:15 pm
Location: Chandler, Arizona
Contact:

Re: animal protein

Postby jgilberAZ » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:42 am

Show me a clinical study that backs that claim up.

And, not an epidemiology study.

Whoever wrote that needs to go back and study basic human biology.
Apoe 3/4
My Website

Plumster
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 460
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:19 pm

Re: animal protein

Postby Plumster » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:56 am

Hi jgilberAZ,

Follow this link and scroll down for studies:
https://www.pcrm.org/clinical-research
e3/4 MTHFR C677T/A1298C COMT V158M++ COMT H62H++ MTRR A66G ++ HLA DR

User avatar
jgilberAZ
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 60
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:15 pm
Location: Chandler, Arizona
Contact:

Re: animal protein

Postby jgilberAZ » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:09 am

I'll look at the studies.

But, a quick peek showed that they took people on the standard american diet and put them on a low-fat vegan diet.

Of course, that will show dramatic improvement.
Even the proponents of carnivore will agree that a well-formulated vegan diet is significantly better than the standard american diet.

But, that doesn't mean high fat diets lead to insulin resistance.
I don't believe that is even biologically possible.
Insulin resistance is when the fat cells refuse to take more glucose when triggered by insulin to do so.
So, insulin has to increase more to get the same effect.
And the cycle repeats.

Insulin is produced in response to net carbohydrates.
There is no insulin response to fat.
So, how in the world could fat cells become insulin resistance when insulin is not pressuring them to take glucose out of the blood.
Doesn't make sense. At all.

I would suggest you check out the Virta Health publication.

I gotta run, but I'll post more later.
Apoe 3/4
My Website

Plumster
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 460
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:19 pm

Re: animal protein

Postby Plumster » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:40 am

Insulin resistance is when the fat cells refuse to take more glucose when triggered by insulin to do so.


One has to then ask why the fat cells refuse to take more glucose in the first place--i.e. the step before the refusal? The answer is excess dietary fat. Here from Mastering Diabetes:

Think of insulin resistance as a series of metabolic dominoes. The dominoes are arranged in this order:
1. Eat excess dietary fat (greater than 15% of total calories)
2. Dysfunctional insulin receptors
3. Glucose becomes “trapped” in your blood, resulting in high blood glucose
4. Your need for oral medication and/or insulin increases

In reality, your blood glucose is determined primarily by how much fat you eat, and secondly by the amount of carbohydrate you eat.


The quote is from the PDF I have attached here, which is about the meat version of the keto diet, not the plant-based one that Bredesen recommends. My point is not to denounce keto by any means. I understand its purpose and usefulness for e4s. But I want to specify the cause of diabetes and insulin resistance, since you brought it up, and the PDF explains this in detail and has a long list of research studies at the end.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
e3/4 MTHFR C677T/A1298C COMT V158M++ COMT H62H++ MTRR A66G ++ HLA DR

BrianR
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 213
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2018 12:32 pm
Location: Southeastern Michigan

Re: animal protein

Postby BrianR » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:56 am

johnseed wrote:Is 3oz of animal protein the same as 3 oz of animal flesh? ie does 3 oz of flesh contain 3 oz of protein? Is all animal flesh, red meat, white meat, fish, shellfish etc the same from this perspective?

My heuristic is about 6-8g of protein per oz (~28g) of animal flesh. Meats which have lots of water pumped into them (e.g., some ham or chicken) or lots of fat will have lower protein densities.

Here are some some simple internet references I found which have more specific details for various foods:
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/johns_hopkins_bayview/_docs/medical_services/bariatrics/nutrition_protein_content_common_foods.pdf
https://www.todaysdietitian.com/pdf/webinars/ProteinContentofFoods.pdf
https://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/protein-chart.html

circular
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 5139
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:43 am

Re: animal protein

Postby circular » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:34 am

Plumster wrote:Dr. Garth Davis:
Diabetes is caused by fat getting into muscle cells and damaging the cells ability to make insulin receptors.


Here's a good online source: https://www.masteringdiabetes.org/

According to muscle metabolism expert Dr. Lyon on the podcast Evolving Past Alzheimer's, fat getting into the muscle would be characteristic of sarcopenic obesity. The solution would be, at least in part, more strength training and the proper nutrition to build muscle, to include adequate leucine intake at the right time and without keeping mTOR chronically elevated by chronic caloric intake. While she's a proponent of the nutritional advantages of animal protein, especially with respect to muscle (and thus metabolic) health, she does help vegans achieve adequate leucine intake by proper combining of pea and rice protein. She emphasizes that metabolic derangement in muscle precedes the diseases of aging including insulin resistance. From this perspective, it's not the fat getting into the muscle that's causing diabetes, it's poor muscle metabolism causing insulin resistance and allowing fat into the muscle among other related issues.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.

Plumster
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 460
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:19 pm

Re: animal protein

Postby Plumster » Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:46 pm

Interesting, Circular!
e3/4 MTHFR C677T/A1298C COMT V158M++ COMT H62H++ MTRR A66G ++ HLA DR

circular
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 5139
Joined: Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:43 am

Re: animal protein

Postby circular » Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:10 pm

Plumster wrote:Interesting, Circular!

I'm finding her POV very interesting and potentially vital for us in preventing or delaying Alzheimer's. Dr. Gundry and Dr. Bredesen and others, for all I think they each offer, are not to my knowledge muscle experts. I've spent the majority of the last four months in a skilled rehab facility with a parent, surrounded by people who clearly aren't aging well for a whole variety of reasons. To look at them they all have advanced sarcopenia. Dr. Lyon would say this began long before any phenotypic evidence of it, just like we say Alzheimer's begins long before clinical signs of it.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.


Return to “Prevention and Treatment”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests