Fascinating podcast on APOE4 and keto diet

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Re: Fascinating podcast on APOE4 and keto diet

Postby BrianR » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:46 pm

Julie G wrote:Help me understand, Brian. Are you suggesting that early man wouldn't have lived in areas affected by glaciation?

As I understand it, during the most recent ice age, there were small populations living in the so-called refugia. I don't think there is good evidence yet from northern/high altitude Asia during the most recent ice age, so maybe there were significant populations living in heavily glaciated areas.

My general understanding is that tool using hominids have migrated into Northern Europe during warmer spells for over a million years, but have either died out or migrated back to more southerly regions when the ice ages have lowered temperatures.

So, I'm not really definitely answering your question, more asserting that I don't think that humans - until the last 10k years or so - have had the right tool kit to survive in very cold regions. Perhaps the Neanderthals or Denisovans did. Or, you know, I could just be generally wrong.

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Re: Fascinating podcast on APOE4 and keto diet

Postby Tincup » Tue Aug 20, 2019 1:14 pm

Julie G wrote: As Magic Bean points out, the Tsimane (with a high prevalence of ApoE4 and low chronic disease risk including AD/CVD) don't eat a lot of meat. As hunter gatherers, they eat what's seasonally available to them as described here. I listened to this podcast back-to-back with the one Circ recommended in this thread. It's very clear that there's no one optimal diet for everyone, including ApoE4 carriers, but we do have a decent amount of evidence to suggest that a hunter gatherer lifestyle may be most compatible with our genome.


The one thing that came out of the Circ recommended podcast is none of the groups ate ultra processed foods . This paper suggests "acellular carbohydrates promote an inflammatory microbiota" and "Due to being made up of cells, virtually all “ancestral foods” have markedly lower carbohydrate densities than flour- and sugar-containing foods, a property quite independent of glycemic index. Thus the “forgotten organ” of the gastrointestinal microbiota is a prime candidate to be influenced by evolutionarily unprecedented postprandial luminal carbohydrate concentrations."

Also, in the Circ podcast, it was noted that most of the hunter/gatherers don't eat all the time (nod to Satchin Panda)

My take - just eat real food, infrequently...

PS - Gundry told us that when he was at Loma Linda, some of the most unhealthy people he saw were what he termed "pastatarians."
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Re: Fascinating podcast on APOE4 and keto diet

Postby kevmusic » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:05 pm

Re the point made by Julie G (above), that early man was fundamentally omnivorous - and only carnivorous "during the ice age, seasonally, or as dictated by geographic region when other food wasn't available" - it would seem that paleo-anthropologists are far from agreed on this and it is not a settled issue. Some make a powerful argument that early man was primarily carnivorous, and only resorted to plant food in times when animal food was scarce, as a poor second choice. The paleo-anthropologist Miki Ben-Dor holds this view and makes a convincing evidence-based argument in this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8SOvZDFyqI. The interviewer is Dr Paul Saladino (the proponent of carnivore who interviewed Tommy Wood about APOE4). If we accept MikiBen-Dor's argument, then Saladino's hypothesis that APOE4's might do better on a carnivorous (i.e. plant free) diet is not unreasonable, as the APOE4 gene originates in that earlier time when it would seem (from the evidence cited by Ben-Dor) that humans lived almost exclusively on a diet of large mammals.

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Re: Fascinating podcast on APOE4 and keto diet

Postby MagicBean » Tue Aug 20, 2019 6:53 pm

Something I've been pondering is the common assumption that whatever foods early humans were eating is what modern humans should be eating. Their diet may have supported short-term survival... but what about long term? Their diet may have been appropriate for people who were not sitting as much, who moved around much more, and expended much more daily energy. It may have been appropriate if you were infested with parasites. Who really knows! There are other factors involved as well, such as a likely entirely different fatty acid composition of whatever animals our forebears were consuming. Vegetation as well is nothing like the modern cultivated hybrids we consume today. While I think we can extrapolate some information from our ancestors' dietary habits, it's a bit of a leap to assume that modern humans should be eating an all-carnivore diet of animals that did not even exist 1.8 million years ago. Or for that matter, an all-vegan diet. This is why it's helpful to look at existing traditional groups like the Tsimane who have a predominance of ApoE4 and a lack of Alzheimer's, etc. And the modern-day Tsimane diet, from what I've read, consists of high amounts of carbs and very little animals.

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Re: Fascinating podcast on APOE4 and keto diet

Postby Tincup » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:50 pm

When Peter Attia interviewed Tom Catana a missionary doc in the Nuba Mountains between N & S Sudan, Dr Attia asked him how much of the diseases of modern civilization he saw. Dr. Catana responded, almost zero. The Nubians eat a diet that is primarily sorghum. Also not a lot of excess. Dr. Catana was an All American Nose Guard (US Football) at Brown in college. he weighed about 240#'s when he played. When he came back to the US he initially weighed 150#'s - eating the Nubian diet. He said he'd put on 20#'s in the first month of returning. Even 170 is a far cry from his 240 playing weight. Don't know anybody's ApoE status, though it tends to be high in Sub Saharan Africa (these are black people, not Arabs from N Sudan). Not saying Sorghum is optimal, just that eating a diet that is non-processed is likely closer to optimal.
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Re: Fascinating podcast on APOE4 and keto diet

Postby Julie G » Wed Aug 21, 2019 4:16 pm

As I understand it, during the most recent ice age, there were small populations living in the so-called refugia. I don't think there is good evidence yet from northern/high altitude Asia during the most recent ice age, so maybe there were significant populations living in heavily glaciated areas.

My general understanding is that tool using hominids have migrated into Northern Europe during warmer spells for over a million years, but have either died out or migrated back to more southerly regions when the ice ages have lowered temperatures.

So, I'm not really definitely answering your question, more asserting that I don't think that humans - until the last 10k years or so - have had the right tool kit to survive in very cold regions. Perhaps the Neanderthals or Denisovans did. Or, you know, I could just be generally wrong.

I agree that our early ancestors likely sequestered into geographic pockets where they had some refuge from glaciated areas, but it's also plausible that others adapted to harsher conditions to survive. Some archeologists suggest that glacial periods may have forced early humans to develop tools to support survival such as bone needles to make warm clothing and spears to hunt animals which may have been a primary food source when nothing else was available.
Some make a powerful argument that early man was primarily carnivorous, and only resorted to plant food in times when animal food was scarce, as a poor second choice.

"Early man" spans millions of years and a vast geographic region with shifting climate. I agree that some were very likely primarily carnivorous out of necessity (during glacial periods) or even preferentially when meat was available. My guess is that there were also periods when meat wasn't available and other foods (berries, honey, grasses, leaves, bark, insects, etc.) were eaten. Here's an interesting article that discusses how climate may have altered dietary options and shifted human evolution.
The one thing that came out of the Circ recommended podcast is none of the groups ate ultra processed foods . This paper suggests "acellular carbohydrates promote an inflammatory microbiota" and "Due to being made up of cells, virtually all “ancestral foods” have markedly lower carbohydrate densities than flour- and sugar-containing foods, a property quite independent of glycemic index. Thus the “forgotten organ” of the gastrointestinal microbiota is a prime candidate to be influenced by evolutionarily unprecedented postprandial luminal carbohydrate concentrations."

Also, in the Circ podcast, it was noted that most of the hunter/gatherers don't eat all the time (nod to Satchin Panda)

YES, that was my biggest take away as well. Modern hunter gatherers have extraordinarily diverse diets but none eat processed food and they all eat in a time restricted window. In terms of diet, this may well be one of our most important lessons in terms of overcoming our genetic mismatch issue.

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Re: Fascinating podcast on APOE4 and keto diet

Postby missy » Sat Aug 24, 2019 11:11 pm

What do ppls think of the Dr. Paul Saladino and Mike Munzel interview on High Intensity Health?

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Re: Fascinating podcast on APOE4 and keto diet

Postby kevmusic » Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:30 pm

Just had a look at the Paul Saladino/Mike Mutzel talk mentioned by Missy which is here https://highintensityhealth.com/why-carnivore-diet-works-w-paul-saladino-md/. It's a great podcast and Dr. Saladino is very persuasive, in my view, on the potential or actual toxicity of many plant substances and phytochemicals from vegetables (e.g turmeric, sulforaphance from broccoli!, resveratrol etc etc etc ). Plants don't want to be eaten, but can run away, so they create pesticides to harm their predators (including us, when we elect to eat them). Saladino is also persuasive, as usual, on the optimal nature of a nose-to-tail carnivore diet.
I also listened to the podcast on the supposed ideal diet for humans, originally recommended by Circ and subsequently by Julie G, which is here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/68-is-there-an-optimal-diet-for-humans-with-anahad-oconnor/id1381257272?i=1000446957796 The flaw in the argument made by Anahad O'Connor in that podcast is to draw conclusions about the ideal diet for humans based on the dietary habits of contemporary hunter-gatherers like the Hadza.
As Miki Ben-Dor explains here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8SOvZDFyqI (from about 25.00 mins in), it's not valid to draw conclusions about what is evolutionarily right for humans from the lives of contemporary hunter gatherer because the contemporary hunter-gatherer environment is so different from that of our ancestors (i.e.contemporary hunter gatherers do not have unfettered access to mega fauna - they can't hunt and exclusively eat big animals like mammoth, elephants as our ancestors preferred to do in our evolutionary past).
The Miki Ben-Dor podcast is persuasive stuff. Should we APOE4s should think about going carnivore (or at least trying it for a while?) I am a 2/4 and trying the diet at the moment - nose to tail, as recommended by Pau; Saladino. Good results so far (after 6 weeks)...

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Re: Fascinating podcast on APOE4 and keto diet

Postby kevmusic » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:34 am

Oops, typo - meant "plants can't run away" in 5th line above! :lol: :lol:

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Re: Fascinating podcast on APOE4 and keto diet

Postby Julie G » Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:38 am

Should we APOE4s should think about going carnivore (or at least trying it for a while?) I am a 2/4 and trying the diet at the moment - nose to tail, as recommended by Pau; Saladino. Good results so far (after 6 weeks)...

Ah, you're also a rare bird, my friend! FWIW, I like that you're eating nose-to-tail. Are you also practicing any time restriction in your eating pattern? What was your "before" diet like? Any differences you can report on now? Out of curiosity did you perform any "before" biomarker testing? I'd be most interested in your vitamin C levels and the status of your microbiome after being on an exclusively carnivorous diet. Here's a fascinating new paper exploring the microbiome with APOE status hypothesizing that ApoE4 deficiencies in diversity and abundance may be associated with our greater risk for Alzheimer's.


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