Cleaning of Lymphatic brain vessel - Nasya therapy

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Fiver
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Re: Cleaning of Lymphatic brain vessel - Nasya therapy

Postby Fiver » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:15 am

I've often wondered how this would work. The connections must be small and there must be some positive pressure from the brain, pushing fluid outward - else pathogens could get in. Seems like the flow of substances out of the brain would depend upon the size of the "tubes" and the pressure difference. Basic plumbing physics. Does the size or "open-ness" of the tubes change as we age? during inflammation? The the internal pressure just from the brain being higher - I guess not inf it works sleeping on a side. So the body most "pressurize" the brain space slightly. Are there ways to boost the pressure difference, e.g. like lowering the external pressure to get things draining better? Brain injuries often led to pressure building in the brain - maybe that's a way the damaged brain is trying to get rid of waste? If sleeping on a certain side helps, it seems like driving up a mountain or flying in the plane (to lower external pressure) might help also. I don't know much about this. But it's very interesting!
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Re: Cleaning of Lymphatic brain vessel - Nasya therapy

Postby circular » Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:32 pm

Julie G wrote:This one ultimately led me to fall down a rabbit hole...

I thought you were about to say 'looking for a tail'.
Julie G wrote:If both of these end up bearing out, it may pave the way for powerful interventions we can easily employ to help clear beta-amyloid.

I have a suspicion that knowledgable lymph massage is one such powerful, intervention, and already at hand, but expensive (not much different than a $100/month pill or spray though). Of course I have no idea if it helps clear beta amyloid, but I think they should study it.
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Re: Cleaning of Lymphatic brain vessel - Nasya therapy

Postby Julie G » Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:57 am

I have a suspicion that knowledgable lymph massage is one such powerful, intervention, and already at hand, but expensive (not much different than a $100/month pill or spray though). Of course I have no idea if it helps clear beta amyloid, but I think they should study it.

I keep looking for my tail... and can't find it! ;) I agree that this should be studied! Because the lymph system doesn't have a propulsion system, it makes sense that massage and even dry brushing towards the heart would help to create the pressure necessary to activate the valves.
I've often wondered how this would work. The connections must be small and there must be some positive pressure from the brain, pushing fluid outward - else pathogens could get in. Seems like the flow of substances out of the brain would depend upon the size of the "tubes" and the pressure difference. Basic plumbing physics. Does the size or "open-ness" of the tubes change as we age? during inflammation? The the internal pressure just from the brain being higher - I guess not inf it works sleeping on a side. So the body most "pressurize" the brain space slightly. Are there ways to boost the pressure difference, e.g. like lowering the external pressure to get things draining better? Brain injuries often led to pressure building in the brain - maybe that's a way the damaged brain is trying to get rid of waste? If sleeping on a certain side helps, it seems like driving up a mountain or flying in the plane (to lower external pressure) might help also. I don't know much about this. But it's very interesting!

I appreciate your musings and wonder the same. One thing that I've previously learned is that many of our "tubes", lymphatic vasculature, etc. aren't exactly like pipes. They're dynamically permeable allowing macrophages, lymphocytes, etc. to flow through to mount an adaptive immune response against viruses, toxins, etc. During inflammation, I know that our vasculature tends to be much more permeable allowing both "good" and "bad" to flow through. I wonder if the same is true of the lymphatic vasculature? And given the connectivity of the lymphatic and glymphatic systems (via the meningeal lymphatic vessels), I wonder if strategies, like nasal rinses (especially when used by pro-inflammatory E4s) could have any impact on promoting pressure and thesubsequent drainage of toxins? Regardless, nasal rinses could potentially provide an opportunity to otherwise maintain the health of nasopharynx and sinuses which may be critical given the close proximity to the brain even if there isn't any direct interaction with the lymphatic or glymphatic systems.

In terms of what we can do to promote the glymphatic system, Matthew Walker, PhD., author of "Why We Sleep" claims that deep NREM sleep provides a pulsing rhythm that promotes a ten to twentyfold increase in "efluent expulsion" from the brain. The purifying work of the glympahtic system is accomplished by CSF bathing the brain. Apparently glial cells shrink by as much as 60% during NREM sleep enlarging the space around nuerons and allowing the CSF to proficiently clean out the metabolic refuse collected during the day- including beta-amyloid. This underscores the importance of deep sleep and all of the strategies we can use to promote it like caffeine avoidance after noon and alcohol avoidance before bed. The latter has a profound negative impact on deep sleep potentially depriving us of this amazing benefit.

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Re: Cleaning of Lymphatic brain vessel - Nasya therapy

Postby circular » Fri Sep 06, 2019 6:51 pm

Lisa G wrote:
circular wrote:dry myself with a towel after a shower to enhance lymph flow


Great suggestions! I also dry brush before a shower. Feels wonderfully stimulating! :D

I haven't tried dry brushing, but I'll bet it is stimulating. What do you use?

Sorry I wasn't clearer, in fact I didn't even say what I meant :lol: I do dry myself with a towel (since I don't have time to run the water off around the house and might slip and fall if I tried :lol: ), but that's not the part that enhances lymph flow. It's the body area sequence and direction of drying to follow the lymphatic drainage patterns and help keep them open and flowing. There's a system and a touch to it. Both are important. You don't want to move lymph in the opposite direction of where it's supposed to go, which is what so often happens, and you want to clear the major drainage areas before moving from nearer to farer from them, so you free up where there's congestion and sluggishness before you send new lymph through the area.

I'm no expert, so that's just my tired description in a general way.

A lymph therapist would use hands and fingers to do this over almost an hour for the whole body, so my little hack, while it takes longer than a standard towel dry, isn't exactly thorough. You can do the same with lotion. You can do both and then at least a neck/head clearing before bed. We can be in the habit of facilitating our major lymph drainage areas throughout the day so that lymph from more distal areas can drain properly. Ultimately I hope this would help the glymphatic system.

I'll try to find the good video on the lymph system I once saw. Here's a different and introductory one. While it doesn't go into the glymph system, I think a basic understanding of the lymph system is important and addressing neck and up g/lymphatics isn't enough. There are many other videos to help conceptualize this online.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.

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Re: Cleaning of Lymphatic brain vessel - Nasya therapy

Postby Julie G » Sat Sep 07, 2019 6:41 am

Any advice on how to find a massage therapist who’s specially trained in lymphatic massage?

My guess is that dry brushing may be a poor man’s version. Here’s a video with a how-to. It does feel amazing... hopefully doing good things.

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Re: Cleaning of Lymphatic brain vessel - Nasya therapy

Postby circular » Sat Sep 07, 2019 10:51 pm

Julie G wrote:Any advice on how to find a massage therapist who’s specially trained in lymphatic massage?

My guess is that dry brushing may be a poor man’s version. Here’s a video with a how-to. It does feel amazing... hopefully doing good things.

Thanks for the video link to dry brushing technique. I can well imagine that feels good and aim to try it soon. I’m sure it helps in some way too.

Unless I’m a sucker for a big hoax, the Chikly method of lymph massage is far more involved and most likely more effective for the lymph system, while my self lymph massage hack is an inadequate flubup by comparison, but maybe worse or better or the same as dry brushing? Both helpful but in another universe from Chikly’s work while giving a decent nod to it. Don’t know what I’m talking about haha!

Here’s a video with Chikly about his level 1 training class. There are quite a few levels, so this is ground floor. https://youtu.be/bNaZ62tdTMk
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.

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Re: Cleaning of Lymphatic brain vessel - Nasya therapy

Postby circular » Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:07 pm

Here’s a page to Chickly trainee lymph massage therapists. I was lucky to have a really experienced one. She now books about two or three months out. There’s a lot of info at the website and you’ll see that he does a lot with the brain. I don’t think he’d be very impressed with my hack, but I’m stickin’ to it until I win the lottery. If I could make it a career there’s a good chance I would go through the training. https://chiklyinstitute.com/find-a-therapist
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.

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Re: Cleaning of Lymphatic brain vessel - Nasya therapy

Postby mike » Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:47 pm

Julie G wrote:In terms of what we can do to promote the glymphatic system, Matthew Walker, PhD., author of "Why We Sleep" claims that deep NREM sleep provides a pulsing rhythm that promotes a ten to twentyfold increase in "efluent expulsion" from the brain. The purifying work of the glympahtic system is accomplished by CSF bathing the brain. Apparently glial cells shrink by as much as 60% during NREM sleep enlarging the space around nuerons and allowing the CSF to proficiently clean out the metabolic refuse collected during the day- including beta-amyloid. This underscores the importance of deep sleep and all of the strategies we can use to promote it like caffeine avoidance after noon and alcohol avoidance before bed. The latter has a profound negative impact on deep sleep potentially depriving us of this amazing benefit.

I'm wondering if the slow brain waves during deep sleep actually provide the "pressure" needed to move stuff out of the brain...
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Re: Cleaning of Lymphatic brain vessel - Nasya therapy

Postby zc_hl » Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:22 pm

Fiver wrote:I've often wondered how this would work. The connections must be small and there must be some positive pressure from the brain, pushing fluid outward - else pathogens could get in. Seems like the flow of substances out of the brain would depend upon the size of the "tubes" and the pressure difference. Basic plumbing physics. Does the size or "open-ness" of the tubes change as we age? during inflammation? The the internal pressure just from the brain being higher - I guess not inf it works sleeping on a side. So the body most "pressurize" the brain space slightly. Are there ways to boost the pressure difference, e.g. like lowering the external pressure to get things draining better? Brain injuries often led to pressure building in the brain - maybe that's a way the damaged brain is trying to get rid of waste? If sleeping on a certain side helps, it seems like driving up a mountain or flying in the plane (to lower external pressure) might help also. I don't know much about this. But it's very interesting!



zc_hl wrote:Astroglial water channel aquaporin 4-mediated glymphatic clearance function: A determined factor for time-sensitive treatment of aerobic exercise in patients with Alzheimer’s disease (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0306987718305449):

Further studies also show that the clearance function of the glymphatic system depends on astroglial water channel aquaporin 4 (AQP4) that lines the paravascular CSF pathways [28–30]. AQP4, the most abundant water channel in the brain, is crucial for maintaining brain water homeostasis [31,32]. We demonstrated that AQP4 gene knockout (AQP4-/-) in mice results in slightly increased brain water content, reduced CSF production rate, and delayed postnatal brain water uptake [33–34]. AQP4-/-mice exhibit slowed CSF influx from the subarachnoid space into the brain parenchyma, as well as ISF outflow into the subarachnoid space again [28]. Apart from maintaining brain water balance, AQP4 facilitates ISF entering into astrocyte processes surrounding the synapses, which might drive astrocyte Ca2+ signaling transduction and reuptake of K+ and glutamate, thus regulating synaptic plasticity [35,36]. AQP4 is also involved in the regulation of neurotrophic factordependent synaptic plasticity [37]. Adult AQP4-/-mice exhibit defects in consolidation memory and location-specific object memory [38,39]. Furthermore, AQP4 is necessary for the glymphatic system to clear Aβ and Tau [28–30]. Adult AQP4-/-mice show a ∼45% reduction in clearance of intrastriatal injected radio-labeled Aβ1-40, compared with aged-match wild-type (WT) mice [28]. In order to define the function of AQP4 in AD pathology, we successfully established AQP4-/-/APP/PS1 mice. Twelve-month-old AQP4-/-/APP/PS1 mice exhibit heightened spatial learning and memory impairment along with increased Aβ plaques deposition, amyloid angiopathy, synaptic protein loss and atrophy of astrocytes in the hippocampus and cortex [30]. This revealed a mitigating role of AQP4 in Aβ pathogenesis, suggesting that regulating the glymphatic system via targeting at AQP4 may be an effective therapeutic strategy for clearing soluble Aβ in the brain of patients with AD.


---------

Water for thought: is there a role for aquaporin channels in delirium? (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2014.00057/full):

The movement of water in and out of the neuropil occurs with the help of the glymphatic system via special molecular pumps, aquaporin water channels (AQP 4) located in astrocyte end-feet. Water circulation is enabled by the exchange between the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) and interstitial fluid (ISF). The pressure gradient for this exchange is probably provided by pericytes’ contraction and arterial pulsations along with the suction, pump-like action of AQP 4 channels (4–6). This movement of water in and out of the neuropil enables both, clearance of molecular waste and volume transmission (VT) of chemical signals (7). Conversely, delayed water movement (glymphatic stasis) may predispose to the accumulation of misfolded proteins (4) and ultimately to neuroinflammation (8).

The relationship between water and delirium is complex. Both, brain edema and dehydration may predispose to delirium (9). Up-regulation of AQP 4 water channels seems to occur in both situations. In fact, a biphasic up-regulation was described in edema build-up and the resolution phase (10). Interestingly, AQP 4 receptors seem to be the common denominator between the neuropil water movement and neuroinflammation (10). Moreover, animal studies demonstrated that peripheral dehydration triggers central up-regulation of AQP 4 receptors (11–13). This in turn causes swelling and priming of astrocytes and microglia, predisposing to neuroinflammation (14).


Maybe pulsing water intake can be a way to increase the differential of pressure?

Fiver
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Re: Cleaning of Lymphatic brain vessel - Nasya therapy

Postby Fiver » Fri Sep 13, 2019 12:10 pm

Thanks. very interesting! I think this is what I am learning:

Looks like several things might be going on. Cell shrink and swell, which would involve the aquaporins to let water in and out of cells. Then there is some sort of space, tubes or openings. And these become more open or more constricted depending on how the cells lining the spaces swell (or not). Then the pulsing or changes in pressure gradients would help fluid move through the tubes or openings.

There seems to be potential here to improve the process right? by chemical means, by modifying cell water relations, and by pulses of gentle pressure changes.

This really is interesting. I've seen a few attempts to measure clearance. I wonder if a researcher somewhere has a system for monitoring this, so that different approaches could be tested.
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