High Homocysteine Possible Deficiencies

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Magda
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High Homocysteine Possible Deficiencies

Postby Magda » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:37 pm

table .png


I was just reviewing information on methylation, homocysteine, B9, B12 and found this very useful table in my Biochemistry book! :D
I hope it will help some of you to target your supplementation even better.

Markers like FIGLU and Methylmalonate are very specific. High FIGLU in the urine will correlates with poor folate (THF) status. Methylmalonate (MMA) correlates with low B12 levels. If you have high Homocysteine (which is not specific) knowing FIGLU and MMA status will help you to target your supplementation.

I hope this is helpful!

Magda
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Re: High Homocysteine Possible Deficiencies

Postby Plumster » Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:47 pm

Magda,

Thank you! It is indeed very helpful.

I've been puzzled that my homocysteine could be so low, at 5.5 (!), and my B6 and folate normal, B12 very high, and yet my MMA high. I was under the impression that low/normal homocysteine meant that you were not deficient in B12. Good to know, I'll keep working on my B12!
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Magda
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Re: High Homocysteine Possible Deficiencies

Postby Magda » Fri Mar 06, 2020 7:06 pm

Plumster wrote:Magda,

Thank you! It is indeed very helpful.

I've been puzzled that my homocysteine could be so low, at 5.5 (!), and my B6 and folate normal, B12 very high, and yet my MMA high. I was under the impression that low/normal homocysteine meant that you were not deficient in B12. Good to know, I'll keep working on my B12!


Plumster,

Per my current state of knowledge, it sounds you have insufficiency in converting methionine down to homocysteine. Have you ever done an Amino Acid test? Do you know your methionine status?

Based on provided info, I think you may benefit from:
- methyl donors (betaine, SAMe) and Magnesium. Betaine is in beets.
- also what type of B12 are you currently taking? If you are taking cobalamin poor conversion to adenosyl and methylcobalamin may be one of the explanations, why your B12 and MMA are elevated.
- do you know your FIGLU status?
- do you know your Zinc status? Zinc is needed for Folate to be absorbed as well is a cofactor for Methionine Synthesis enzyme (you have a SNP in MS & MTHFR) and is used by betaine homocysteine methyltransferase.

I hope this is helpful.
I think you will truly benefits form and Organic Acid test.

Magda
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Re: High Homocysteine Possible Deficiencies

Postby Plumster » Fri Mar 06, 2020 10:42 pm

Plumster,

Per my current state of knowledge, it sounds you have insufficiency in converting methionine down to homocysteine. Have you ever done an Amino Acid test? Do you know your methionine status?

Based on provided info, I think you may benefit from:
- methyl donors (betaine, SAMe) and Magnesium. Betaine is in beets.
- also what type of B12 are you currently taking? If you are taking cobalamin poor conversion to adenosyl and methylcobalamin may be one of the explanations, why your B12 and MMA are elevated.
- do you know your FIGLU status?
- do you know your Zinc status? Zinc is needed for Folate to be absorbed as well is a cofactor for Methionine Synthesis enzyme (you have a SNP in MS & MTHFR) and is used by betaine homocysteine methyltransferase.

I hope this is helpful.
I think you will truly benefits form and Organic Acid test.

Magda


Hi Magda,

Thank you so much for your thoughts and helpful suggestions.

I did Nutreval FMV Amino Acids last year (2019), but I haven't taken the same one this year, partly because I don't really know how to read the Nutreval. Under "methionine" there's a zero, as if it wasn't tested (?), there are zeros with most of the amino acids. I took a dutch test about six months ago. Vitamin B6 was within range. MMA was above range at 1.9 ug/mg. Glutathione was above range (I'm supplementing NAC) and the rest were within range. My methylation appears to be good(?): 2-Methoxy-E1 is 2.56. Do you have a particular organic acid test and specific markers in mind? I'm very new to this and haven't quite figured out how to read these.

I take Hydroxocobalamin and Hydroxo-Adeno. Once in a great while, I take methylcobalamin, but I don't take it everyday, because if I take it too often, I'll be wired and unable to sleep (COMT++). I supplement with magnesium (malate, citrate, and threonate). I don't know my FIGLU status, unless it's simply folate? My folate level is currently 12.4 ng/L and my zinc is currently low (I'm supplementing) at 64 mcg/dl. My B12 is >2000. I am 100% plant based, so there's not a lot of methionine in my diet, except a Brazil nut a day!
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Magda
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Re: High Homocysteine Possible Deficiencies

Postby Magda » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:18 pm

Plumster wrote:
Plumster,

Per my current state of knowledge, it sounds you have insufficiency in converting methionine down to homocysteine. Have you ever done an Amino Acid test? Do you know your methionine status?

Based on provided info, I think you may benefit from:
- methyl donors (betaine, SAMe) and Magnesium. Betaine is in beets.
- also what type of B12 are you currently taking? If you are taking cobalamin poor conversion to adenosyl and methylcobalamin may be one of the explanations, why your B12 and MMA are elevated.
- do you know your FIGLU status?
- do you know your Zinc status? Zinc is needed for Folate to be absorbed as well is a cofactor for Methionine Synthesis enzyme (you have a SNP in MS & MTHFR) and is used by betaine homocysteine methyltransferase.

I hope this is helpful.
I think you will truly benefits form and Organic Acid test.

Magda


Hi Magda,

Thank you so much for your thoughts and helpful suggestions.

I did Nutreval FMV Amino Acids last year (2019), but I haven't taken the same one this year, partly because I don't really know how to read the Nutreval. Under "methionine" there's a zero, as if it wasn't tested (?), there are zeros with most of the amino acids. I took a dutch test about six months ago. Vitamin B6 was within range. MMA was above range at 1.9 ug/mg. Glutathione was above range (I'm supplementing NAC) and the rest were within range. My methylation appears to be good(?): 2-Methoxy-E1 is 2.56. Do you have a particular organic acid test and specific markers in mind? I'm very new to this and haven't quite figured out how to read these.

I take Hydroxocobalamin and Hydroxo-Adeno. Once in a great while, I take methylcobalamin, but I don't take it everyday, because if I take it too often, I'll be wired and unable to sleep (COMT++). I supplement with magnesium (malate, citrate, and threonate). I don't know my FIGLU status, unless it's simply folate? My folate level is currently 12.4 ng/L and my zinc is currently low (I'm supplementing) at 64 mcg/dl. My B12 is >2000. I am 100% plant based, so there's not a lot of methionine in my diet, except a Brazil nut a day!



Plumster,

How long have you been eating 100% plant-based diet?
Do you eat eggs? Do you supplement with amino acids?

Methionine (Met) is one of the essential amino acids which means we do not synthesize it we have to bringing in from food. You mentioned, your amino acid test showed no methionine which usually means the level was low and the test did not detect it …

Methionine is one of the main players in the transmethylation pathway. Acts as methyl group supplier. If Met levels are low, the pathway will not function properly. Hence low homocysteine. If there is increased oxidative stress in the body and therefore increased need for Glutathione (GSH) the transmethylation pathway switches to transulfuration to synthesis more of this powerful antioxidant.

Glutathione is a tripeptide which means is biosynthesizes of 3 amino acids: Cysteine (here comes in your NAC), Glutamate and Glycine. Your elevated GSH is probably not related to supplementation with NAC but to increased need for it, therefore more synthesis occurs, or highly associated with blockage in transmethylation (insufficient Methionine to Homocysteine synthesis).
See homocysteine is a link between transmethylation and transulfuration. In transulfuration pathway via multiple steps requiring nutrients like B6, Betaine, Serine, SAMe, Heme; Cysteine is formed which then goes further and make more GSH. Fascinating, right :)

Formimminoglutamate (FIGLU) is a specific marker of folate, tetrahydrofolate (THF) to be exact (but not 5-methyfolate). It is an organic acid, an intermediate of Histidine (another essential amino acid) degradation.
Urinary FIGLU level will be high when glutamate forminotransferase enzyme is missing folate which is its cofactor. This enzyme converts formiminoglutamate to the final step of this reaction – Glutamate. So High FIGLU means low THF- very specific.

I like Genova ION Organic acid test with Amino acids. Very comprehensive looks at all the important markers. I know that Great Plains Lab has one too.
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Re: High Homocysteine Possible Deficiencies

Postby Plumster » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:10 pm

How long have you been eating 100% plant-based diet?
Do you eat eggs? Do you supplement with amino acids?


Hi Magda,
I've been plant-based for 2-3 years. I do not eat eggs or supplement with amino acids.
I do get methionine in my diet, of course. Based on cronometer, which I've been tracking the past few days, I'm getting about 65% of required daily intake. I know that low methionine helps prevent cancer and is a life extender, but a conversion deficiency is a different matter! My dutch test (September 2019) says my methylation is good. I did have SIBO last year and my mma got higher than it is now. I was also very low in ferritin. My ferritin is currently 35 (I'm supplementing).

I'm seeing my FM in two weeks, so I'll ask for an organic acid test then.

P.s. Thank you!!
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Re: High Homocysteine Possible Deficiencies

Postby Rhood12 » Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:07 am

Numerous medical journals have reported that taking doses of folate of 1 gram or more increase the chance of prostate cancer.

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Re: High Homocysteine Possible Deficiencies

Postby BrianR » Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:12 pm

Rhood12 wrote:Numerous medical journals have reported that taking doses of folate of 1 gram or more increase the chance of prostate cancer.

Hmm, folate supplement or folic acid supplement?

From https://www.cancer.gov/types/prostate/patient/prostate-prevention-pdq
Folate is a kind of vitamin B that occurs naturally in some foods, such as green vegetables, beans and orange juice. Folic acid is a man-made form of folate that is found in vitamin supplements and fortified foods, such as whole-grain breads and cereals. A 10-year study showed that the risk of prostate cancer was increased in men who took 1 milligram (mg) supplements of folic acid. However, the risk of prostate cancer was lower in men who had enough folate in their diets.

[emphasis mine]

Folate supplements also exist, I haven't heard that they have been implicated in higher cancer risk. (But I'm relatively ignorant, so they certainly could be.)

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Re: High Homocysteine Possible Deficiencies

Postby Stefan » Wed Mar 11, 2020 9:12 am

I, apo4/3, MTHFR 677 C>T, 74 y, have problems to lower my homocystein level down to 7 um/l, it is presently at 12..., although Im supplementing with 5 mm methyl folate, together with enough Vit b2 and b6, betaine, Mg-Threonate and Zn, vit b12 being optimal (injections), Of course this is a double SNP problem, so i understand my problems... Any ideas?

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Re: High Homocysteine Possible Deficiencies

Postby SusanJ » Wed Mar 11, 2020 12:16 pm

Stefan wrote:Any ideas?


You might experiment with adding choline (or phosphatidylcholine) and/or creatine. See Chris Masterjohn's take on treating MTHFR.

I used both PC and creatine on top of things in your list (but smaller amounts of methyl-folate at 400 mcg/day) to drop mine from 10.4 to 6.9.


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