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Anyone lowered LDL drastically WITHOUT statins ?

Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, and other chronic diseases; biomarkers, lifestyle, supplements, drugs, and health care.
Werner
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Anyone lowered LDL drastically WITHOUT statins ?

Postby Werner » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:01 pm

Hi there,

just recently I discovered that my left carotid artery ias about 50% blocked. Cardiologist says if I have plaqe there, I certainly will have it elsewhere and insists of me taking a statin (Atorvastatin 40 mg).
to drastically lower my LDL. My numbers:

LDL: 180
HDL: 60
Trigs: 90
Hba1c: 5.4
ApoE: 3/4

After taking the statin for 1 week, I felt miserable (cramps all over the body, headaches). Anyway, I do not want to take the statin anymore.

Did anybody have success with lowering LDL (drastically) with other means or supplements?
Cardiologists says LDL must be under 90 at least for the plaques to receed.
Thanks for any hints.

Werner
ApoE: 3/4

Rick
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Re: Anyone lowered LDL drastically WITHOUT statins ?

Postby Rick » Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:10 pm

Consider asking your doctor about a reduced stain dose and/or supplement with Zetia. Zetia was very effective for me but now I just take 2.5 mg of Crestor because my numbers were getting too low. I am 70 and have a calcium score of ~1200 so I have been around the block.

IMO they should be judging your LDL particle counts rather than the LDL (which is often calculated from triglycerides rather than measured) - especially the small particles which are more atherogenic.

Good luck

Werner
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Re: Anyone lowered LDL drastically WITHOUT statins ?

Postby Werner » Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:56 am

Rick,
thank you for your comment.
I am living in Germany and we measure "particle count" differently: particles are separated into 7 subgroups according to size. Most of my particles are big, but I do have a few small ones too und I do have PLAQUE.
Actually I do not worry too much about my LDL-number as OxLDL is low and "good" according to my cardiologist. The PLAQUE is the problem (blockage of carotid artery 50%). I wonder if anybody has succeeded in shrinking plaques?
Apparently DEAN ORNISH has proven to do this with his "Ornish diet" which is basically a low fat, vegetarian diet, including grains. But this was in the 80-ies and there must be new findings and improvements now.
Anybody having success with this kind of diet or other measures?

Werner
ApoE: 3/4

Tincup
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Re: Anyone lowered LDL drastically WITHOUT statins ?

Postby Tincup » Sat Aug 01, 2020 4:16 pm

Werner wrote:Did anybody have success with lowering LDL (drastically) with other means or supplements?
Cardiologists says LDL must be under 90 at least for the plaques to receed.


Back in the day, I ate a whole food, very low fat, vegan diet for 17 years. These results are from 2007.

TG 43 mg/dL
HDL 48 mg/dL
LDL 92 mg/dL
TC 149 mg/dL

Even though I had a relatively low A1C of 5.2%, an oral glucose tolerance test wasn't to my liking, so I ditched this plan.

Most recently, 30 April, on a very low saturated fat, but relatively high mono fat diet that includes shellfish, white fish, eggs and avoids lectins such as grains, legumes, nightshades and seeded veggies, the results were:


TG 63 mg/dL
HDL 61 mg/dL
LDL 107 mg/dL
TC 183mg/dL

in addition,
oxLDL 27
sdLDL 20.6

LDL-P 1156
Small LDL-P 145

I can raise the LDL to 175 by water fasting for 7 days (I've not heard of people thinking fasting causes heart disease).

I've been keto adapted since 2009 and my diet is currently relatively high carb (100-200g/day) keto. Meaning I always test between 0.5 and 1.5 mmol/L serum ketones on a morning test.

I'm happier with the 2nd set of numbers than the first. My insulin/glucose system is performing much better. Also my autoimmune issues are dramatically reduced. My doc (Gundry) looks at this differently. We've posted redacted labs and transcripts for 9 hour long meetings with him.

My experience says that to reduce LDL-c, reduce saturated fat.
Tincup
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Werner
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Re: Anyone lowered LDL drastically WITHOUT statins ?

Postby Werner » Sun Aug 02, 2020 5:47 am

Tincup,
thanks a lot for your thoughtful post.

Your LDL numbers seem to be in the "green area" from the very beginning, when you started out with only LDL 92. Good for you!
In my case I have probably "familial hypercholesterinemia", lowering LDL from my high number of 180 is probably difficult. But I am willing to try anything anyway. Currently I am eting low-carb including meat and fish, which has resulted in reaching my perfect body weight. Now I have to reduce the LDL.

A vegetarian diet (ORNISH maybe)? sounds good to me. Also I will reduce the fat intake drastically (used lots of olive oil for cooking and in salads).
That may also help.

Apparently there is nothing on the supplement front that can help here ???
Somehow I must accomplish PLAQUE shrinking.

Werner
ApoE: 3/4

Tincup
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Re: Anyone lowered LDL drastically WITHOUT statins ?

Postby Tincup » Sun Aug 02, 2020 7:24 am

Werner wrote:Tincup,
thanks a lot for your thoughtful post.

Your LDL numbers seem to be in the "green area" from the very beginning, when you started out with only LDL 92. Good for you!
In my case I have probably "familial hypercholesterinemia", lowering LDL from my high number of 180 is probably difficult. But I am willing to try anything anyway. Currently I am eting low-carb including meat and fish, which has resulted in reaching my perfect body weight. Now I have to reduce the LDL.

A vegetarian diet (ORNISH maybe)? sounds good to me. Also I will reduce the fat intake drastically (used lots of olive oil for cooking and in salads).
That may also help.


My LDL is very sensitive to sat fat. Even the sat fat in EVOO. EVOO is our doc's (Gundry) favorite food. So I have been eating algae oil, but the company that makes it is discontinuing. The fat in the whitefish (low anyways), shellfish or eggs, does not seem to impact my LDL. I consume a lot of omega 3 fat. No seed oils (soy, corn, canola & etc).

If you are eating low carb, especially in the keto range, there are parallels between that and fasting. Meaning that may be driving up your LDL. Dave Feldman (an E3/4) has the Cholesterol Code website. He has his Lean Mass Hyper Responder theory. There is a FB group https://www.facebook.com/groups/cacgranik/ talking about Coronary Calcium Scores and how to reverse them. Likewise at the Irish Heart Disease Awareness. Ivor Cummins (E3/4) has interviewed a lot of experts on this topic in his Fat Emperor Blog/Podcast. I don't know the answers. The problem with Ornish diet for me is that the high carb diet led me into the realm of hyperinsulinemia. My own approach is to have an excellent glucose & very low glycemic variability, which includes low carb, but also low sat fat. Gundry is most interested in oxidized LDL, not absolute values of LDL-c. He also uses the PULS test. IL-16 is a driver of that score, and his clinical experience is that removing lectins from the diet reduces IL-16. My 4/4 wife and I had this experience. We started making yogurt with A-2 milk. We obviously react to it. My IL-16 went up 2x and hers 10x!. They reduced by these amounts after we quit the A2 milk (we don't consume any other dairy - Gundry says cheese is the worst, in his clinical experience, for E4's). Here is a poster he presented on the topic. And another poster he presented in 2015 on his lifestyle approach.
Tincup
E3,E4

buck3Maureen
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Re: Anyone lowered LDL drastically WITHOUT statins ?

Postby buck3Maureen » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:14 am

Hi Werner,
I have been vegan for years and yet my cholesterol numbers were borderline. I decided to try an cut out coconut oil because it is a saturated fat and I was using it a lot. In one month my LDL dropped 50 points. I think the HDL (the supposed good one) dropped also but not as dramatic. I don't do regular blood work so I don't know what it is today.

Maureen

apod
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Re: Anyone lowered LDL drastically WITHOUT statins ?

Postby apod » Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:01 pm

I tried a low fat diet for a while, years back. It definitely did the trick. I also did a high SFA diet, and it moved the needle pretty far in the opposite direction. A high MUFA, moderate PUFA diet with daily exercise brought my levels to place where I felt things were balanced (aside from minor concerns of still eating a pretty large amount of polyunsaturated fats). Occasionally, I dip back into this higher carb, lower-fat diet when craving summer fruits and starches and being more active -- when I go here, I do my best to double down on phytonutrients and bright foods, opting for things like pomegranate and wild blueberries over white rice.

I'd be more interested in lowering LDL-particles, or small dense LDL particles than lowering LDL. (That said, my LDL-P and sdLDL numbers were the lowest while on the low-fat diet.)

While eating low-fat, my A1C ran ~5.3%. On a MUFA diet, it runs in the 4.x%'s. It's definitely a bit of a balancing act between multiple goals and diet monotony.

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Re: Anyone lowered LDL drastically WITHOUT statins ?

Postby SusanJ » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:10 am

Werner wrote:Did anybody have success with lowering LDL (drastically) with other means or supplements?


I'm a work in progress, but the doctor I'm currently working with says he sees LDL numbers drop once you fix underlying inflammation (usually infections like virus, Lyme, gut dysbiosis). He runs a practice that treats mostly AD patients, but sees a few of us trying to prevent it and is Bredesen trained. My last LDL was at 126, but my oxLDL was low as of last year. We're currently working on rehabbing my gut, so it will be a few months before I'd see any change in LDL if that is a problem for me.

Have you looked at markers of inflammation in your labs? Might be something to look at.

apod wrote:It's definitely a bit of a balancing act between multiple goals and diet monotony.


Boy, do I feel that pain, apod!

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Re: Anyone lowered LDL drastically WITHOUT statins ?

Postby NewRon » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:23 am

Apo E4/E4, Male, Age 56


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