I am so lost abouts diets.

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leolouo
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I am so lost abouts diets.

Post by leolouo »

Hi everyone,

I learnt i was 4/4 more than one year ago and tried to make some changes but so far, its been complicated. My genetic research has been motivated by a few health issues i have, im 30, i have intestinal disorders ( pain in the morning, sensitive intestines, difficult digestion ). I have fasciculations and damaged muscles especially in the legs, nothing that prevents me from doing yoga, bike etc but it can become quite crampy or sore if im not extra careful. I have focus and concentration issues and i always feel tired, mostly.
Ive seen a few doctors but you know how it is, if youre not dying soon, most of them elude you.

I basically had to come to the conclusion that most of my symptoms are not helped by the genetic predisposition to being fucked like we are at 4/4s people. So i tried a bunch of things but the DIETS ARE SO HARD TO FIGURE OUT.

So far, Magnesium and Gaba help to relax but im very sleepy the day after.
Melatonin help sleep quality but doesnt help to sleep if taken alone ( needs to be helped my magnesium or plants )
CoQ10 feels like it helps the mood and the endurance but once it goes off it feels not as good and it doesnt help the intestine i think or maybe not?

Anyway, I need help with DIET, I Can eat anything, i dont care, im not difficult, but.

To be able to achieve the Keto stasis required, you barely can eat Carbs, which make me prone to eat a lot of meat.
But Bredesen Diet says its bad for 4/4 to eat too much meats.
If i take meat out, i have to go back on complex carbs
But complex carbs still break in pure glucose in the blood which is one of the cause of the inflammation in 4/4s,
If you cant got for complex carbs, or meat, there is litteraly nothing left but eggs and olive oil, and raspberries.

Added to that i have LOW blood sugar level and HIGH triglycerides level. which make me feel like those choices are even more impactful, but i dont know how.
Will keto make my sugar so low itll make me worst or will it help my body learn how to produce more from good sources?
Will eating Keto diets will increase triglycerides?

Oh, and, on the top of that, i was happy to figure out that fish is a very good option, i was ready to eat loads of fish and then you read that even low mercury fish, you should limit to 3 servings a week?

God, someone help me please, or ill burn out.
Quantifier
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Re: I am so lost abouts diets.

Post by Quantifier »

Hello leolouo, welcome aboard!

I hear you on the diet issue, it can be complicated! I am far from being an expert, and my situation is very different from yours, but here are some thoughts:

My husband and I are vegetarians, so I do a low carb diet without meat or fish, by relying on a variety of beans (white, garbanzo, lentils, all sorts) as a protein source. Now this might not work for you due to digestive issues, but my husband also has such problems, and we found that pressure-cooking overcomes the issue - my husband can eat any beans if pressure-cooked. We use them to make curries and stews with a variety of other vegetables and spices. Maybe you can alternate fish and beans?

Regarding fish - some are lower in mercury. Small fish like anchovy, sardines, herring, as well as wild-caught salmon. So you might be able to safely eat more fish if you focus on those?

Besides the bean-based dishes I eat plenty of raw vegetables - my lunch is typically a huge salad of vegetables, chia/hemp seeds, walnuts, avocado, and olive oil. Again, digestive issues may limit your choice of raw vegetables you can tolerate (my husband can't eat any raw cruciferous vegetables), but perhaps you can find those that work for you?

Some nuts are lower in carbs than others - pecans, macadamia, walnuts, almonds. You may need to soak them for easier digestion (my husband can tolerate them raw).

With respect to blood glucose levels: I stop eating at around 7-8 pm. I found that in the morning, after 12 hours of fasting, my blood glucose is usually in the 70-90 mg/dl (3.9-5 mM) range, but some days may be lower, as low as 50 mg/dl (2.8 mM). However I also have blood ketones, measured as beta-hydroxybutirate at anywhere from 0.5-1.2 mM. My subjective feeling is the same - I don't have an acute feeling of hunger, just a vague 'hmm, it's been a while since I've eaten' sensation. Nor do I feel weak or dizzy or anything else on days my blood glucose is lower - it seems that between ketones and (probably) free fatty acids my brain is getting its energy from somewhere. (I continue fasting until around noon, some days later if I can't take a break from work.)

I hope this helps. Good luck on your journey!
lucytownsend
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Re: I am so lost abouts diets.

Post by lucytownsend »

leolouo wrote:Hi everyone,

I learnt i was 4/4 more than one year ago and tried to make some changes but so far, its been complicated. My genetic research has been motivated by a few health issues i have, im 30, i have intestinal disorders ( pain in the morning, sensitive intestines, difficult digestion ). I have fasciculations and damaged muscles especially in the legs, nothing that prevents me from doing yoga, bike etc but it can become quite crampy or sore if im not extra careful. I have focus and concentration issues and i always feel tired, mostly.
Ive seen a few doctors but you know how it is, if youre not dying soon, most of them elude you.

I basically had to come to the conclusion that most of my symptoms are not helped by the genetic predisposition to being fucked like we are at 4/4s people. So i tried a bunch of things but the DIETS ARE SO HARD TO FIGURE OUT.

So far, Magnesium and Gaba help to relax but im very sleepy the day after.
Melatonin help sleep quality but doesnt help to sleep if taken alone ( needs to be helped my magnesium or plants )
CoQ10 feels like it helps the mood and the endurance but once it goes off it feels not as good and it doesnt help the intestine i think or maybe not?

Anyway, I need help with DIET, I Can eat anything, i dont care, im not difficult, but.

To be able to achieve the Keto stasis required, you barely can eat Carbs, which make me prone to eat a lot of meat.
But Bredesen Diet says its bad for 4/4 to eat too much meats.
If i take meat out, i have to go back on complex carbs
But complex carbs still break in pure glucose in the blood which is one of the cause of the inflammation in 4/4s,
If you cant got for complex carbs, or meat, there is litteraly nothing left but eggs and olive oil, and raspberries.

Added to that i have LOW blood sugar level and HIGH triglycerides level. which make me feel like those choices are even more impactful, but i dont know how.
Will keto make my sugar so low itll make me worst or will it help my body learn how to produce more from good sources?
Will eating Keto diets will increase triglycerides?

Oh, and, on the top of that, i was happy to figure out that fish is a very good option, i was ready to eat loads of fish and then you read that even low mercury fish, you should limit to 3 servings a week?

God, someone help me please, or ill burn out.
leolouo, Welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing your story. We are here to support you and hopeful you will find comfort and relief as you look through the evidence-based information housed on the Forum. It sounds like you are feeling a bit overwhelmed. One sentiment that is very popular on this Forum is that genes are NOT our destiny. You mentioned you "have intestinal disorders ( pain in the morning, sensitive intestines, difficult digestion )." Do you know what the root cause of this is? Have you ever had labs done ? Done an elimination diet?
Gut health is the foundation of any health program, but it’s especially critical to brain health and presents an opportunity for intervention. The brain and the gut are intricately and bi-directionally connected. The gut microbiome provides the foundation for healthy function of our nutritional, immune, hormonal and neurological systems. We are just beginning to understand the effects that our modern world and its disconnect with nature are having upon our health. Stressful, sedentary, over-sanitized lives and diets rampant with sugar, but devoid of nutrients or fiber along with antibiotic, herbicide, pesticide and other chemical exposure have been devastating to the integrity of the gut and it’s microbiome . It is thought that the explosion of chronic diseases such as obesity, diabetes, autoimmune and neurological diseases have common roots with the dysfunction of the gut microbiome.

If you have any underlying issues such as a “leaky gut” (an overly permeable gut wall), dysbiosis, (a microbial imbalance within the gastro-intestinal or GI tract), a small intestinal bacterial overgrowth or SIBO (a condition that occurs when bacteria that normally reside in the large intestine begin living in the small intestine), irritable bowel syndrome or IBS (which manifests as GI pain accompanied by either diarrhea, constipation or both) or H. pylori (a common infection associated with ulcers) you may need additional interventions to aid in the optimization of your health and nutritional program. We can’t overstate how common these GI disorders are and how many people remain undiagnosed and untreated. Exploring the root cause of underlying GI issues is critical. The following are some points to consider:


Food Allergies or Sensitivities

Any true food allergy should be revealed through formal testing with an allergist. Food sensitivities are usually timed further from ingestion, are less severe and often limited to GI symptoms such as gas, bloating, constipation and/or diarrhea, but can include rashes, mouth ulcers, arthritis, widespread body pain, headaches, fatigue, mood swings irritability and “brain fog”.
Common food allergies and sensitivities, besides grains (especially wheat) and dairy are egg (typically the egg white, not the yolk), peanuts, soy, tree nuts, shellfish, nightshades (such as eggplant, tomatoes, hot and sweet peppers, and potatoes), and multiple ingredients and chemicals used in processed foods.
The best way to identify a food sensitivity is to conduct an elimination trial for three weeks. Eliminate the most common triggers; all grains (especially wheat), dairy, corn, soy, egg, shellfish, peanuts, tree nuts, and nightshades.
Assuming you feel better after the elimination trial, reintroduce one food at a time starting with eggs, approved nightshades, organic, non-GMO preferably fermented soy, and small amounts of A2 dairy only. Eat that food 2x/day for 2 days, then avoid that food on day three. On day four, reintroduce the next food. Keep a journal of your responses. Identifying a food sensitivity can be so rewarding as healing occurs. After healing, some can tolerate small doses of the culprit food occasionally. (For some, food sensitivity testing such as Cyrex, Zoomer, Alletess, Meridian, MRT, Alcat and many others may help illuminate allergens.
If you have lingering symptoms following an elimination trial, you may need to consider a low FODMAP diet on a temporary basis. You can lean more in All About fodmaps

Keep in touch -

Warmly,

Lucy
Lucy Townsend
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leolouo
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Re: I am so lost abouts diets.

Post by leolouo »

Quantifier wrote:My husband and I are vegetarians, so I do a low carb diet without meat or fish, by relying on a variety of beans (white, garbanzo, lentils, all sorts) as a protein source. Now this might not work for you due to digestive issues, but my husband also has such problems, and we found that pressure-cooking overcomes the issue - my husband can eat any beans if pressure-cooked. We use them to make curries and stews with a variety of other vegetables and spices. Maybe you can alternate fish and beans?
Beans are sadly the most carby vegetable, which make going for a Mild Ketosis in order to support Mitochondrial function impossible. Eating too much beans is not a lot of carbs but may over the prerequired amount for entering Ketosis. Both articles on autoimmunes conditions and Apoe4 preventions support the idea that Ketosis could have outstanding effect on mitochondrial function.

I'm not vegan si i thought eating meat wasnt going to be an issue until i notice that Bredesen tells that very low meat should be eaten and support the idea that you could into Mild ketosis with mostly plants, which is, if you actually try math, impossible to do with Total Carbs, it could work with Net carbs but studies support the idea that going with Net Carb isnt good because our body doesnt function that simply. We actually do process more than Net carbs in glucose most of the time.

So, in the end, it feels so counter intuitive to have one opinion that say, Meat isnt a problem, Carb is, boost your cells into Ketosis.
And the other saying, Meat is harmful, dont eat too many, fuck ketosis. (Basically). Especially considering both the sources come from scientific support and research. Since Bredesen research is more empirical, i would tend to go toward the last researchs that advice Ketosis, but i still have doubts.
lucytownsend wrote:are less severe and often limited to GI symptoms such as gas, bloating, constipation and/or diarrhea, but can include rashes, mouth ulcers, arthritis, widespread body pain, headaches, fatigue, mood swings irritability and “brain fog”.
I have all of that, but not always, they come periodically, not necessarily at the same time. I tried so hard to see a gastro-enterologist, but since its so hard for me the get a family doctor, they ask some question make one or two test so check for very bad things, and dont really go further. Last time, he didnt <scan< anything and was reassured by the fact that probiotics make my symptoms tolerable (not disappear tho). It felt dismissive, but its almost impossible with the system here to do that again and again and again. So i had to try things. Thats where im clueless cause i tried some changes in the diet but its been hard and when i dont have digestive issues for a few days, i usually still experience, fatigue, mood swings, brain fog, loads of muscle twitch, some sleep issues, so i never feel confident enough that some component of my alimentation is a real trigger. Im full in on Keto right now, i have a feeling that itll help my energy levels but wont really help with most of my symptoms.

In order to finish on another note on why studies are a mess:
You both read than Caffeine is a stimulant not advised in autoimmune condition ( and Apoe4 is inducing autoimmune processes ), and that Coffee is good against Alzheimer or to prevent it, cause it help get rid of amyloid tabs.
How do you guy make a choice?
lucytownsend
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Re: I am so lost abouts diets.

Post by lucytownsend »

leolouo wrote:
Quantifier wrote:My husband and I are vegetarians, so I do a low carb diet without meat or fish, by relying on a variety of beans (white, garbanzo, lentils, all sorts) as a protein source. Now this might not work for you due to digestive issues, but my husband also has such problems, and we found that pressure-cooking overcomes the issue - my husband can eat any beans if pressure-cooked. We use them to make curries and stews with a variety of other vegetables and spices. Maybe you can alternate fish and beans?
Beans are sadly the most carby vegetable, which make going for a Mild Ketosis in order to support Mitochondrial function impossible. Eating too much beans is not a lot of carbs but may over the prerequired amount for entering Ketosis. Both articles on autoimmunes conditions and Apoe4 preventions support the idea that Ketosis could have outstanding effect on mitochondrial function.

I'm not vegan si i thought eating meat wasnt going to be an issue until i notice that Bredesen tells that very low meat should be eaten and support the idea that you could into Mild ketosis with mostly plants, which is, if you actually try math, impossible to do with Total Carbs, it could work with Net carbs but studies support the idea that going with Net Carb isnt good because our body doesnt function that simply. We actually do process more than Net carbs in glucose most of the time.

So, in the end, it feels so counter intuitive to have one opinion that say, Meat isnt a problem, Carb is, boost your cells into Ketosis.
And the other saying, Meat is harmful, dont eat too many, fuck ketosis. (Basically). Especially considering both the sources come from scientific support and research. Since Bredesen research is more empirical, i would tend to go toward the last researchs that advice Ketosis, but i still have doubts.
lucytownsend wrote:are less severe and often limited to GI symptoms such as gas, bloating, constipation and/or diarrhea, but can include rashes, mouth ulcers, arthritis, widespread body pain, headaches, fatigue, mood swings irritability and “brain fog”.
I have all of that, but not always, they come periodically, not necessarily at the same time. I tried so hard to see a gastro-enterologist, but since its so hard for me the get a family doctor, they ask some question make one or two test so check for very bad things, and dont really go further. Last time, he didnt <scan< anything and was reassured by the fact that probiotics make my symptoms tolerable (not disappear tho). It felt dismissive, but its almost impossible with the system here to do that again and again and again. So i had to try things. Thats where im clueless cause i tried some changes in the diet but its been hard and when i dont have digestive issues for a few days, i usually still experience, fatigue, mood swings, brain fog, loads of muscle twitch, some sleep issues, so i never feel confident enough that some component of my alimentation is a real trigger. Im full in on Keto right now, i have a feeling that itll help my energy levels but wont really help with most of my symptoms.

In order to finish on another note on why studies are a mess:
You both read than Caffeine is a stimulant not advised in autoimmune condition ( and Apoe4 is inducing autoimmune processes ), and that Coffee is good against Alzheimer or to prevent it, cause it help get rid of amyloid tabs.
How do you guy make a choice?
Hi leolouo,

Attached is a link about coffee and tea you might find useful coffee another one of my favorites is the Primer, written by one of our member physicians, Stavia, who is ApoE4/4. It is great introduction to ApoE4, biochemistry, and possible prevention strategies in addition to exploring areas such as the science behind the ApoE4 gene and the lifestyle factors that impact its expression. It is a wealth of information - a great place to come back to time and again! Your sure to find information about keto diet here. Other links below include the How-To-Guide, Our Stories and a Direct to Consumer Lab Testing Options . I am also going to include a link to the Institute for Functional Medicine website where you can search for a FM doctor near you. I'm not sure if you've ever considered seeing a FM doctor, they are trained in finding the underlying cause of disease. They may be useful in your journey to uncover your gut symptoms. Please keep in touch on the forum and know that others with a medical background will also respond to help answer some of your dietary questions.

Warmly,

Lucy

How To Guide

Our Stories

Consumer Lab Testing

Institute For Functional Medicine
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Quantifier
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Re: I am so lost abouts diets.

Post by Quantifier »

leolouo wrote:Beans are sadly the most carby vegetable, which make going for a Mild Ketosis in order to support Mitochondrial function impossible. Eating too much beans is not a lot of carbs but may over the prerequired amount for entering Ketosis. Both articles on autoimmunes conditions and Apoe4 preventions support the idea that Ketosis could have outstanding effect on mitochondrial function.
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss beans. As I mentioned in my post, I have measured my ketones (using a Keto Mojo GK+ meter) and in fact I am in ketosis in the mornings very consistently. I do not know when in the night I enter ketosis, but my understanding is that at least for now just spending part of each day in ketosis, and having a metabolism that is flexible enough to switch from relying on glucose to breaking down fats (which is how ketones are produced) on a regular basis is what I need. So you can have a meatless (or low meat) diet and have the benefits of ketosis, you don't have to choose. If you want to monitor your metabolism you can get a ketone meter (the meters and strips are available online) and see what diet does it for you. Good luck with experimentation!
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Re: I am so lost abouts diets.

Post by leolouo »

I'm not sure if you've ever considered seeing a FM doctor

where i am its 2 to 4 years of waiting list before you can have one, i live in Canada and its pure nonsense...
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Re: I am so lost abouts diets.

Post by leolouo »

leolouo wrote:
I'm not sure if you've ever considered seeing a FM doctor

where i am its 2 to 4 years of waiting list before you can have one, i live in Canada and its pure nonsense...
How you meant Functional Medicine, not Family medicine... never heard about that
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Re: I am so lost abouts diets.

Post by kayakmac08 »

leolouo wrote:God, someone help me please, or ill burn out.
Hi leolouo, I feel for you! Navigating this stuff can be a bit of a headache, especially with some much data (and opinions) to sift through. Like you, I'm in my early 30s, a 4/4, and just trying to figure things out. Here's what I do, diet-wise (along with some thoughts for you, for what it's worth):

-Intermittent fasting, 14-18 hours/day, most days. This will get you into mild ketosis for a little bit each day. At this point in life (as a young and healthy person), I think this is fine. I personally think that going full Keto is overkill for someone who's way out ahead of any cognitive decline. And Keto seems like it could be more trouble than it's worth; you really have to watch your blood like a hawk to make sure you don't throw something out of whack, and some peoples' bodies just don't do well with it for genetic reasons. I'm not saying it doesn't have it's place, or that I'm utterly against it. But I'm wary. It's an arrow in my quiver but I'm not planning to use it anytime soon.

-LOTS of veggies, especially leafy greens. My diet is about 75% vegetarian at this point.

-LOTS of fiber. You'll already be getting some from the veggies, but might as well add flax and chia seed to the mix, too. This helps keep your LDL in reasonable ranges, and there are oodles of other benefits.

-LOTS of olive oil

-MODERATE amounts of fatty fish (salmon, sardines, mackerel, herring). Never anything fried, and I don't really bother with any sort of white fish. Oh, and I eat a weirdly large amount of oysters and clams, for the sterols.

-MODERATE amounts of nuts, nut butters, sunflower seeds, and the like. Avocados are also a must, for their "good" fats.

-MODERATE amounts of eggs and Greek yogurt, and every so often I'll have some chicken.

-Some whole grains. I don't go too crazy here, but it seems like a strict avoidance of carbs is probably overkill for me, especially being so young and active. Maybe similar for you? I went super low carb for a few months, which forced me to eat a moderately high amount of saturated fat (it just sort of adds up easily when you eat a lot of nuts, fatty fish, and eggs) and my LDL-P shot up, my LDL-C crept up a bit, and my white blood cell count plummeted. I also lost about 20lbs, which was not intentional. Letting some carbs back in has allowed me to regain some muscle mass while keeping my body fat steady. I haven't retested my blood numbers, but I imagine my LDL numbers are in a better place. We'll see. As someone who exercises a lot, having some carbs in my life has helped me have more energy for workouts and recover better, too. I just make sure to treat carbs like a side dish or garnish, and never a main course. My carb portions are always small and some days I hardly have any.

-Yet, I still avoid simple carbs and REALLY REALLY avoid anything sugary or fried. And avoid anything with palm oil in it. And if you must eat simple carbs, try to mix it with other macronutrients to blunt the effects on your insulin.

-Avoid the heck out of cheese! It hates you.

-Generally avoid red meat.

-Probiotics like kimchi and kombucha are great. I also supplement with a multivitamin that has high levels of B-vitamins and vitamin D, and some other things. But this is sort of icing on the cake imo.

Summary: Not super strict, not following either Bredesen or Gundry super closely but certainly heavily informed by them. Some of their more fringy notions (like Gundry's ideas about lectins and dairy) are not something I'm going to worry about for now. Maybe later. A lot of what those guys are trying to do is lower inflammation in 4/4s, but making general changes like the ones I've described will set you on the right track with getting inflammation on a downward trajectory. Of course, if you have lots of GI issues, that could make things more complicated, which sounds like might be the case. So my apologies if a lot of what I just said is untenable for you!

Also: I exercise a lot. Cardio almost every day and lifting weights at least 3 days/week. I strongly recommend that you do get into a consistent and fairly strenuous exercise routine, if you're not already. It seems to help my gut and mood, too.

Ok, that's my two cents. Sorry if I sound preachy or anything. I just hope it helps. Just start with broad, general changes and figure out the details as you go. You've got time. :)
  • 4/4 male, born 1989
  • Status discovery: 2020
  • Regimen: 14+ hr. fast/day; 200-300 min of mod-vig exercise/week; Med-esque diet; Supplementing with Trig DHA, B vits, D3
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Re: I am so lost abouts diets.

Post by leolouo »

-Intermittent fasting,
I do that, but more between 14 and 16h, i rarely go over 16h, should i?
LOTS of veggies
I do eat loads of veggie but im very careful to not eat to much as i really want to see what keto does to me. You see, i AM young and in correct shape, but i also have neurological disorders, i have a very lot of mood swings, braing fog, muscle fasciculations, sleep trouble, hardness to concentrate, and short but not too important lapse of memory. So after ive done my whole lot of research, figuring out that Apoe4/4 have a real problem with how glucose infers with mitochondrial function really gave me hope it could be one of the major reason that bother my Mental Sanity. Also, Last year, i felt like < lets just try to be more healthy, but carbs slowly grind out in your life when you do that, and i have a pretty diverse and rich alimentation (although organic and very quality oriented), so in the end, it just never felt like i was doing major changes.
Some whole grains. I don't go too crazy here, but it seems like a strict avoidance of carbs is probably overkill for me, especially being so young and active. Maybe similar for you?
As i told you, i want to experience a deeper keto to notice the changes on my sanity. I must admit that i truly look forward the moment where i can put back some healthy complex carbs into my diet cause i think they can be very beneficial if taken in very high moderation.
REALLY avoid anything sugary or fried.
Seems like a nobrainer, approved
-Avoid the heck out of cheese! It hates you.
Im born in france, so its part of my dna and so far, it doesnt feel like a good idea since its a very nice source of fat and even some protein are in it. Yes i tried to cut loose on cheese in the past, to see if it was the reason of my Gut sensitivity and it didnt look like it. Im mostly focusing on Goat cheese those days tho, cause it is a way healthier option and its a lot easier to digest, it seems tho. As a former french, i can rest you assured i only pick highly qualitative cheese anyway. Where have you read that cheese is that harmful? Bredesen i think? The problem is on the last study that has been published, it is not mentionned as a very high trigger for the systemic problem we can meet.
-Generally avoid red meat.
I generally eat red meant once every two week. Its very cultural as well and it seems to be a diversified way to eat meat since i already cut so many things. I may change my mind in the future.
-Probiotics like kimchi and kombucha are great. I also supplement with a multivitamin that has high levels of B-vitamins and vitamin D, and some other things. But this is sort of icing on the cake imo.
I do eat a bit of sauerkraut everyday, sometimes kimchi, VItamins B as well, i had to cut slack on magnesium cause i kinda started to feel addicted to be honest, and too sleepy the day after. Altho i keep using melatonin for sleep quality.
Also: I exercise a lot. Cardio almost every day and lifting weights at least 3 days/week.
Im only doing a very regular yoga sessions (20 to 40 min a day almost), a fair amount of push ups and i love biking, i could do more, but its hard to find the time.
Ok, that's my two cents. Sorry if I sound preachy or anything. I just hope it helps. Just start with broad, general changes and figure out the details as you go. You've got time. :)
Doesnt sound preachy, im glad to see what works for you, what symptoms did you have in the past and what change did you notice?
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