Need more WEIGHT :)

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circular
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Re: Need more WEIGHT :)

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Julie G wrote: ...
This next study (just skip if you're not interested and I leave it here for whomever :)) isn't any more definitive, or current, than the last one I posted here, and it focused on mortality not dementia. Nevertheless, I found it interesting and nuanced, and I still think it's possible there may be more significance to BMI variation over time than we realize? I'm not at all qualified to weigh in with any opinion on this, so FWIW lol!:

Association of body mass index and weight change with all-cause mortality in the elderly (2006, self reporting, n=13,000+)
Abstract

The authors explored the relation of body mass index (BMI; weight (kg)/height (m)2) and weight change to all-cause mortality in the elderly, using data from a large, population-based California cohort study, the Leisure World Cohort Study. They estimated relative risks of mortality associated with self-reported BMI at study entry, BMI at age 21 years, and weight change between age 21 and study entry. Participants were categorized as underweight (BMI <18.5), normal weight (BMI 18.5-24.9), overweight (BMI 25-29.9), or obese (BMI ≥30). Of 13,451 participants aged 73 years (on average) at study entry (1981-1985), 11,203 died during 23 years of follow-up (1981-2004). Relative to normal weight, being underweight (relative risk (RR) = 1.51, 95% confidence interval (CI): 1.38, 1.65) or obese (RR = 1.25, 95% CI: 1.13, 1.38) at study entry was associated with increased mortality. People who were either overweight or obese at age 21 also had increased mortality (RR = 1.17, 95% CI: 1.09, 1.25). Participants who lost weight between age 21 and study entry had increased mortality regardless of their BMI category at age 21. Obesity was significantly associated with increased mortality only among persons under age 75 years and among never or past smokers. This study highlights the influence on older-age mortality risk of being overweight or obese in young adulthood and underweight or obese in later life. Copyright © 2006 by the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health All rights reserved.

from Discussion

Both weight loss between age 21 and later life (regardless of weight at age 21) and being underweight at age 21 but not gaining weight later in life were associated with increased mortality. Conversely, being of normal weight at age 21 and gaining weight by late adulthood was associated with decreased all-cause mortality.


The variations in the shape of the association between BMI and all-cause mortality among studies may be due to differences in the age composition of the cohorts, the length of follow-up, and the variables that were adjusted for in the analyses, as well as inclusion or exclusion of smokers or early deaths. Two studies with long follow-up in the elderly have found a reverse J-shaped association (2, 23). The results of these studies agree with our finding that persons in the lowest weight category, regardless of age, adjustment for other confounders, or exclusion of early deaths, have the highest mortality.


It may also be a mix, especially in the elderly, of persons with low muscle mass and persons with low fat mass (30). Adjustments for recent weight changes and other measures of assessing body composition are important in order to pinpoint the reasons for increased mortality among the underweight elderly. Nonetheless, our results are fairly robust in showing that underweight elderly have higher mortality than normal-weight elderly.


While the authors of a recent meta-analysis of the association between adiposity and all-cause mortality emphasized the importance of adjusting for physical activity (5), the summary relative risk for an elevated BMI from the studies that included physical activity as a covariate (RR = 1.23) was almost identical to the risk from the studies that did not (RR = 1.24). Consistent with this finding, our results were similar regardless of whether or not we adjusted for physical activities.


We were able to adjust for several important confounding variables and to explore the modifying effects of smoking status, age, and gender. Our study highlights the risks on mortality in older age of being overweight or obese in young adulthood and underweight or obese in later life.
This is alot of weeds (which are said to be good for the environment ;)) . I do agree that the CDC's and Dr. Bredesen's BMI range overall are good guides, but I wonder if it would be more optimal to include a combination of metrics in some sort of formula that would give more precise feedback about one's … would phenotype be the right word here? It could include any or all of muscle strength, muscle mass, viceral vs. subcutaneous fat …

After all that I finally did what I should have done up front with this article, especially given its age. I looked at the "cited by" references and found one from April of this year:

Life-long body mass index trajectories and mortality in two generations
Abstract
Purpose: To identify life-long body mass index (BMI) trajectories across two related generations and estimate their associated mortality risks and population attributable deaths.

Methods: We use prospective cohort data from the Framingham Heart Study (1948-2011) original (4576 individuals, 3913 deaths) and offspring (3753 individuals, 967 deaths) cohorts and latent trajectory models to model BMI trajectories from age 31 to 80 years. Survival models are used to estimate trajectory-specific mortality risk.

Results: We define seven BMI trajectories among original cohort and six among offspring cohort. Among original cohort, people who are normal weight at age 31 years and gradually move to overweight status in middle or later adulthood have the lowest mortality risk even compared to those who maintain normal weight throughout adulthood, followed by overweight stable, lower level of normal weight, overweight downward, class I obese upward, and class II/III upward trajectories. Mortality risks associated with obesity trajectories have declined across cohorts, while the prevalence of high-risk trajectories has increased.

Conclusions: The mortality impact of weight gain depends on an individual's BMI trajectory. Population attributable deaths associated with unhealthy weight trajectories have grown over generations because the prevalence has increased, offsetting the decline in trajectory-specific mortality risks.
I keep finding more on this notion of the importance of BMI trajectories. So I'll leave it alone with this quite interesting one from 2019, since it focused on dementia:

Five-decade trajectories in body mass index in relation to dementia death: follow-up of 33,083 male Harvard University alumni
Background:
In prospective cohort studies, obesity has been linked with a lower risk of subsequent dementia. Reverse causality, whereby neurodegeneration preceding overt dementia symptoms may lower weight, is a possible explanation of these findings. To explore further the weight–dementia association we followed people from early adulthood, an age at which neurodegeneration has typically yet to begin.

Results:
We found no association between early life BMI and subsequent dementia (age-adjusted HR 0.94, 95% CI 0.85, 1.04). We identified two latent class groups based on different BMI trajectories—“early decliners” whose BMI began to decline around age 50 years and “late decliners” whose BMI declined about two decades later. The former experienced a raised risk of dementia-related death compared to the latter (multivariable-adjusted HR 1.57, 95% CI 1.14, 2.17). Expected associations were identified between CVD risk factors and CVD death.

Conclusions:
In a population likely to be free of dementia neuropathology at BMI measurement, we found no association between BMI at baseline and subsequent dementia-related death. Earlier decline in BMI was, however, associated with dementia, which suggests that findings associating BMI with dementia risk may be influenced by reverse causality.
So, without diving into every variable in this "research," if someone experiences significant weight loss without trying to from about age 50, it could be a warning sign. Contrast that with someone who loses weight intentionally while improving cardio and metabolic markers.

On almost all if not every doctor's office intake form they ask if you've experienced any unexpected weight loss. I wonder, if a patient has, whether if they are in mid-life the doctor considers early neurodegenerative changes as a possible cause. I suspect not at this time. It would seem that they still need to isolate just how early neurodegeration could cause weight loss … assuming this is all replicated and passes a rigorous sniff test.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.
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Julie G
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Re: Need more WEIGHT :)

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I do agree that the CDC's and Dr. Bredesen's BMI range overall are good guides, but I wonder if it would be more optimal to include a combination of metrics in some sort of formula that would give more precise feedback about one's … would phenotype be the right word here? It could include any or all of muscle strength, muscle mass, viceral vs. subcutaneous fat …
I truly appreciate your deep dive and remain very humble about all that we don't know. I like your idea above and look forward to your optimal weight calculator that takes all of that into account. :D The verbiage that we settled on in the book to encourage readers to incorporate frame size and muscle composition (with BMI) while remaining vigilant against excessive weight loss can be found below.
While body mass index is a rough measure, taking into account only height and weight, there is a lot of room for personalization based upon your body frame and muscle composition. We recommend maintaining a minimum BMI of 18.5 for women and 19.0 for men if under age 65 and higher for those over age 65. If your weight drops beyond that, you are at increased risk of sarcopenia (the loss of lean muscle mass) and osteopenia (the loss of bone), both of which accompany aging and are correlated with an INCREASED risk of cognitive decline. (We’ll talk more about this in chapter 13.) For now, understand that you must adjust your strategies if your weight drops too low.
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Re: Need more WEIGHT :)

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circular wrote:
Hi circular,
I was thinking about the question of people who were overweight at 21 and lost weight before entry into the study. And then I realized we are also dealing with survival bias: The study compares people who were overweight at 21 and lost weight sometime between then and their 70s to those that were overweight at 21 and remained so all the way to their 70s. But it misses all those who died of say, cardiovascular disease before they reached an age old enough to be included in the study. This is an inherent limitation of retrospective studies. And that is in addition to the limitations the authors mention:
When interpreting our results regarding weight change, it is important to note that we were able to evaluate only weight change between age 21 years and the age at which the questionnaire was completed (an average period of 52 years). We were unable to determine when the weight change occurred or to distinguish between gradual weight change and rapid weight change, fluctuating weight and relatively stable weight, and intentional weight change and unintentional weight change. All of these factors may be important in analysis of the effect of weight change on mortality
circular
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Re: Need more WEIGHT :)

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Julie G wrote:I truly appreciate your deep dive and remain very humble about all that we don't know. I like your idea above and look forward to your optimal weight calculator that takes all of that into account. :D The verbiage that we settled on in the book to encourage readers to incorporate frame size and muscle composition (with BMI) while remaining vigilant against excessive weight loss can be found below.
If only it really were a deep dive and not just a wannabe!

I'll try my hand at the calculator and let you know when it's polished to a blinding shine :D

Thanks for supplying the synopsis from the book. I'm book challenged these days.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.
circular
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Re: Need more WEIGHT :)

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Quantifier wrote:This is an inherent limitation of retrospective studies. And that is in addition to the limitations the authors mention.
Sometimes I wonder why I ever spend any time skimming peer reviewed papers. Without aiming for accuracy here, it seems like 99 out of 100 are useless as a foundation for behavior change when seen through a very rigorous lens. Okay, maybe 97 out of 100, and they can be stepping stones to more papers that we can't act on. Feeling tired and grinchy ;)
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.
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Re: Need more WEIGHT :)

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For anyone interested, I'm doing a Facebook Live at 11am PT with Drs. Bredesen and Rao that will dive into this topic. We're specifically talking about fasting safety. You can view it anytime on the Dale Bredesen, MD Facebook page.
circular
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Re: Need more WEIGHT :)

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Julie G wrote:For anyone interested, I'm doing a Facebook Live at 11am PT with Drs. Bredesen and Rao that will dive into this topic. We're specifically talking about fasting safety. You can view it anytime on the Dale Bredesen, MD Facebook page.
Thanks for the heads up Julie! I listened to it this evening. Gosh, I hope Dr. Bredesen and his wife are doing okay with the immunized Covid :?
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.
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Re: Need more WEIGHT :)

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Thanks for the heads up Julie! I listened to it this evening. Gosh, I hope Dr. Bredesen and his wife are doing okay with the immunized Covid :?
Thank you, Circ (and everyone), for your concern and good wishes. As you can tell from Dr. Bredesen's comments, it's been a pretty rough time for them. His wife is still struggling. Their experience has lead me to be much more cautious.
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Re: Need more WEIGHT :)

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Julie G wrote:
Thanks for the heads up Julie! I listened to it this evening. Gosh, I hope Dr. Bredesen and his wife are doing okay with the immunized Covid :?
Thank you, Circ (and everyone), for your concern and good wishes. As you can tell from Dr. Bredesen's comments, it's been a pretty rough time for them. His wife is in rough shape. Their experience has lead me to be much more cautious.
I had recently begun being more cautious again too (no more eating out with friends, wearing a mask at the gym …). :(
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.
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Re: Need more WEIGHT :)

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Julie G wrote: it's been a pretty rough time for them. His wife is still struggling. Their experience has lead me to be much more cautious.
Did the vaccine fail to protect them from serious symptoms?
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